[Stoves] [biochar-policy] Re: Ron changed the subject. . Re: Disapprovals about being too closed. Re: Air supply in TLUDs

Erich Knight erichjknight at gmail.com
Sun Dec 5 17:16:29 CST 2010


Hi Policy & Stovers,

In my general advocacy duties,
 I spoke with Valerie Reed at EE.DOE,  the Office of Energy Efficiency and
Renewable Energy, Office of the Biomass Program.
 I sent my industry & news updates to her after our conversation, she was
aware of biochar efforts, which allowed me to pile on stuff from ISU etc.

She was excited about  the scale & scope of the stove initiative with Dept
of State, CDC, EPA & DOE and lamented that funding won't be til 2011.


Cheers,
Erich




On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 4:30 PM, <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
> Paul and lists.
>
>     1.  My first words were:  "*I like all parts of your message
> below.....*" and later " ..thank you for being blunt..".  I agree I was
> lengthy on Nat, but I felt it important to do so - because I feel Nat has
> explained a lot more about his stove than you were giving him credit for.
> Do you know anyone with more stove videos? I was also trying to emphasize
> that his Lucia is very different and I hope others will pick up on some of
> his corporate techniques (as I gather things are going quite well).   I
> think the subject line was fine as is - and I change a lot of subject
> lines.   Your "too closed" was what I took to be the subject.
>
>     2.  I think I also was on topic in talking about the problems of
> stove-related corporations - even non-profit ones.  We cannot expect full
> disclosure of every stove detail when people are trying to make money - and
> might be losing it - and/or trying hard to avoid future losses.  We need
> both corporations and volunteers - but we especially need the former now.
>
>    3.   I am now being redundant, but I (like you) hope everyone will share
> more stove data.  But it is not easy to do.  I'd rather get none than crappy
> data.  Fortunately, this new global stove program should/will have some
> money to put into really thorough testing.  In Dean's (and those at CSU or
> Berkeley, etc) defense,  I presume there have been few people batting down
> their doors to fund a wide range of stove testing - especially as
> independent third parties.  I know Nat has paid for his own - and presumably
> does release right now to those who he feels he should be working with.  I
> have not seen any of his detailed test data.
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> Cc: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Otto Formo" <formo-o at online.no>,
> wastemin1 at verizon.net, "biochar-policy" <biochar-policy at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 1:57:47 PM
> Subject: Ron changed the subject.   . Re: Disapprovals about being too
> closed.     Re: [Stoves] Air supply in TLUDs
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> If you wish to convert the topic to a discussion of WorldStove, please
> change the Subject line.
>
> Nat is a nice fellow with a great product, but his sharing needs to be
> more than what I have seen, in my personal opinion.  He has given
> nothing about his emissions tests, and I know of no independent person
> who has complete access to his technology for giving us more feedback.
>   Success by WorldStove is desirable, but so is success by First
> Energy and Philips.  May they all be successful.  ALL of them have
> honorable goals, including making a profit AND helping the poor who
> could have access to those stoves.  Good.
>
> Once again, I have been blunt.
>
> Now, can we please discuss what I wrote about?
>
> Paul
>
> Quoting rongretlarson at comcast.net:
>
> >
> > Paul and ccs (adding "Biochar-policy")
> >
> > I like all parts of your message below with one exception - thank
> > you for being blunt. The exception is your statement that World
> > Stove (Nathaniel Mulcahy) is acting like the other four in your
> > five-corporation secrecy list. Today, Nat recommended a new video
> > that I found clever but in no way informative about the technical
> > side of his stove operations. But while looking at the new one, I
> > saw this other 1:37 minute video about the Lucia:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zefrhc8kgM&NR=1&feature=fvwp
> >
> > Because I have been to his Italian facility and played with several
> > Lucias with several fuels, I can assure everyone that a careful
> > (cursory won't do it) review of what is shown and stated there (and
> > you wouldn't need one in hand) would allow one to duplicate it and
> > understand its principles of operation completely. Nat's is truly a
> > remarkable invention - I know I could not have developed it myself.
> > This video is the complete opposite of secrecy.
> >
> > With several presentations at stove, Biochar, and UN-sponsored
> > climate meetings, Nat has freely discussed how it works and has
> > passed it around for close examination. He is showing a totally free
> > (much simpler) design at his web site. But he did all this only
> > after getting his patents. I think it is indeed a unique product
> > that is worthy of patent protection in the best sense of that word.
> > I presume that others are free to try to improve upon it and get
> > there own patents - but my guess is that Nat's is pretty tight .
> > Everyone should go into intentional avoidance of patents with good
> > lawyers on your side first. What's more to get to the foundry
> > casting of the two key parts is not a low budget operation.
> >
> > So, I think it is much too hard on Nat (who has used up a great deal
> > of his savings and quite a few years of his life) to say he is not
> > sharing information Companies like those you have listed all have to
> > make money or they go out of existence. A certain amount of secrecy
> > comes with the territory. My point is that Nat has been remarkably
> > open - I think because he has a new idea that is patent protected.
> > Without that protection, we would not have this stove development. I
> > can't see how any of the other four can make any claim on novelty or
> > patents - which they probably all have. His product/patent is
> > scalable to much larger sizes than simple stoves - where patent
> > protection is obviously very critical. He seems to be open to joint
> > ventures. Note he has been careful in training programs with only
> > in-country assembly and a great emphasis on using the produced char
> > for ag and sequestration purposes. So I feel that the implication
> > that he is in this only for money is unfair
> >
> > He still has to compete on price and performance with TLUDs (and
> > hopefully some other future designs). There is no monopoly situation
> > here
> >
> > I have no financial interest in World Stoves or any other similar
> > stove or pyrolysis operation.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Otto Formo" <formo-o at online.no>,
> > wastemin1 at verizon.net
> > Cc: rongretlarson at comcast.net, "Discussion of biomass cooking
> > stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 12:09:35 PM
> > Subject: Disapprovals about being too closed. Re: [Stoves] Air
> > supply in TLUDs
> >
> > Dear Otto, Dean, and all Stovers,
> >
> > I take issue with one statement by Otto, who wrote about Aprovecho's
> efforts:
> >
> >> Good advice:
> >> Leave it to others to test and tune the TLUD ND Gasifier Units,
> >> please....................
> >
> > I disagree. We (the Stover community) need everyone working on these
> > issues. And Dean at Aprovecho has great facilities for doing testing
> > of emissions. Dean, keep up the good work!!
> >
> > Having said that, I now take issue with Dean and the apparent
> > Aprovecho approach which is:
> >
> > 1. Not providing all of the information that the others want to have
> > about what testing is going on with the TLUD stoves.
> >
> > 2. At Aprovecho, not involving to any noticable extent any of the
> > pioneers or other experienced advocates of the TLUD stoves.
> >
> > 3. Having made a major shift of direction from many years of "polite
> > tolerance of TLUD gasifiers" to very recent "strong advocacy of TLUD
> > gasifiers with bias toward Aprovecho recent initiatives." EVERYONE is
> > most welcome to get onto the TLUD bandwagon, but let's not get into
> > "private" separate bandwagons.
> >
> > Comments:
> >
> > Sure, everyone is chasing the money. The money for stoves has been so
> > sparse in the past, and it now looks to be like major piles of funds
> > could come to some participants, especially those with a tradition of
> > being the advisors of the funding sources or recipients of grants in
> > the past.
> >
> > I commend Aprovecho for its leadership and contacts in the past. But
> > not if it takes a self-serving approach at the expense of those who
> > have cumulative decades of experience. Is Aprovecho trying to enter
> > the big-time with corporate approaches to the stoves problems?
> >
> > And while I am at it, why not "prickle" the entire "corporate world
> > approach." The major work by First Energy India (former BP project)
> > and the Philips efforts got mentioned in the recent article by Kirk
> > Smith as if they were the only serious accomplishments with the most
> > modern stoves. Those cooporations have thrown major money (millions
> > of dollars) to have products that now can attract Dr. Smith's attention.
> >
> > But those corporate efforts have SHARED NOTHING with the rest of us.
> > No info about emissions levels, no cross-fertilization with others.
> > "Do it alone or do not do it at all" seems to be too closed, in my
> > opinion.
> >
> > And does that apply to others such as Stove Tech, Enviro-fit, World
> > Stove, and any others? They all seem to be determined to do it all in
> > isolation, keeping everything to themselves. (Some exceptions like
> > giving away tid-bits of designs or info does not equate to openness,
> > but is good salemanship.)
> >
> > Is that the way to do business to benefit the poorest of the poor and
> > even the moderately poor? Perhaps it is, or so it seems to be in the
> > capitalist model of stove work that is getting the attention.
> >
> > However, the world arrived at its 2009 state of TLUD knowledge almost
> > entirely by the efforts of dedicated individuals primarily on
> > personally donated time and materials or as side-efforts to their main
> > employment. Not one of those person is yet deceased, and all are
> > still willing -- and highly capable -- to donate and contribute to
> > accomplish their dreams. But there are limits, especially when
> > exclusion is stronger than inclusion.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Paul
> > "Dr. TLUD"
> >
> >
> > Quoting Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >> I just happend to see this statements about the TLUD ND PekoPe and
> >> are a bit surprized that Dean, claims "his" TLUD only can use
> >> pellets and for how long the pellets lasts in the combustion chamber
> >> as a flame and charcoal.
> >>
> >> To my knowledge, the real "PekoPe" burns with an open flame for
> >> about two hours and glow for another 4-5 houers by using 2,5 kg of
> >> pellets made out of wood (pine)..!?
> >> The other thing I noted was that "his" TLUD gives a number of 400 mg
> >> PM, while Paal`s prototype done at the Aprovech Research Center,
> >> only gave 223 mg PM in 2009!?
> >> A lot of water has passed in the river Nile since then, even in
> >> Zambezi...........:)
> >>
> >> Good advice:
> >> Leave it to others to test and tune the TLUD ND Gasifier Units,
> >> please....................
> >>
> >> Otto
> >> Forester and still a TLUD ND "PekoPe" fan............without a
> fan........
> >>
> >>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> >>> Sent: 2010-12-05 07:54:22 MET
> >>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> >>> Subject: [Stoves] Air supply in TLUDs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dean
> >>>
> >>> I think you are describing below only a TLUD that has no control
> >>> over the primary air supply. Or one that has a turn down ratio of
> >>> unity. We should be able to do much better.
> >>>
> >>> I urge having a means of controlling the primary air supply. If one
> >>> is intending to consume the produced char, there will be a mighty
> >>> small flame at the end or a huge flame at the beginning.
> >>>
> >>> There are many ways to control the primary air - at low cost.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
> >>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> >>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2010 10:30:33 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable
> Development
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Adding more air holes in the bottom of the fuel chamber in a TLUD
> >>> allows pellets to burn up completely. If users want bio-char they
> >>> just have to have fewer holes. Then the char is made since there is
> >>> not enough air to support burning it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If it is tuned (!), the TLUD is very low in PM when it does not
> >>> make smoke when starting and finishing the burn. CO is also
> >>> generally low. In the well tuned TLUD we generally see around 7g of
> >>> CO and 400mg of PM during the WBT compared to a carefully operated
> >>> open fire at 55g CO and 2300mg PM. Generally the TLUD makes less
> >>> smoke at the finish with more air holes because all the wood burns
> >>> up without making smoke.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Isn't it great that a TLUD can be operated in both char making and
> >>> no char making modes?
> >>> The user can choose whether they want greater fuel efficiency or to
> >>> make an agricultural additive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dean
> >>>
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail
>
>
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