[Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable Development
Otto Formo
formo-o at online.no
Mon Nov 29 12:59:18 CST 2010
Dear Boston,
most "statements" are based on experience and not on "scientifical" prove........
May be I should say;
"Willing to pay............not only able, because its a personal choice to shift to a different type of item when you still have something which according to your knowledge and "ideas" operates "well".........
People find their ways to buy cellphones and even pay hard cash to get a sigar or a sigarette.......correct.
But to a lower price, easier transaction...........no doubt.
Enjoy the hot weather in Ulan Bator, Chrispin............here we have -25 C for the second week now.
Otto
> From: Boston Nyer [bostonnyer at gmail.com]
> Sent: 2010-11-29 19:27:44 MET
> To: Otto Formo [formo-o at online.no]
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org], biochar-policy [biochar-policy at yahoogroups.com]
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable Development
>
> Otto,
>
> You state that $10 USD to $15 USD is the maximum someone could pay. But
> based on what? I understand that the GDP per capita in Africa is less than
> $1 USD, but there are a myriad of other factors involved. I don't have any
> conviction that people can either pay more or less than $10, it just seems
> that there is no clear reasoning for the valuation. Some may be able to pay
> $10, some $1, some $30, etc.
>
> Furthermore, I assume that this value is an upfront capital cost?
> Financing, whether formal or informal, no doubt plays a critical role.
> From my experience (very very little), people were willing to pay as much
> as they could in fluid cash. They were not as bothered by the total cost
> (potentially accumulated), but by the amount that they could physically pay
> at a certain time. Thoughts?
>
> Crispin mentioned that he has seen a value of around $10 based on
> experience. That makes perfect sense, thank you.
>
> Cheers,
> Boston
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no> wrote:
>
> > Dear Boston Nyer,
> > Low income households in Africa have an average income of less than one US$
> > a day and in an Urban setting spend more than 50% of their monthly income on
> > fuel for cooking.
> > With rising prices on both fuel and food there is not much to spend on
> > other items, so I would very much state that US$ 10-15 could be the maximum
> > people in low income household are ABLE to spend in Africa.
> >
> > One of the challanges in developing countries is the low income and the
> > "lack" of money to be spend, the "none monetary economy", if you like.
> > In addition you have the informal sector which are outside the ordinary
> > taxation systems.
> >
> > Otto
> >
> >
> > > From: Boston Nyer [bostonnyer at gmail.com]
> > > Sent: 2010-11-29 18:11:30 MET
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> > > Cc: biochar-policy [biochar-policy at yahoogroups.com]
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable
> > Development
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > In the column, Dr. Smith does not reference his $10 price-limit. I have
> > > heard this value several times and no one seems to know why $10 was
> > deemed
> > > appropriate. I've been digging and cannot find the source of this
> > > "decision". Does anyone have further information? In my opinion, its
> > > extremely naive to cast a blanket price for all hh stoves around the
> > world.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Boston Nyer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Richard (cc two lists)
> > > >
> > > > See some questions/notes below on your message today. You said:
> > > >
> > > > "*I would buy the one that burned some form of densified non wood
> > > > biomass "cleanly" ......*
> > > >
> > > > *[RWL1: Those of us who are promoting char-producing stoves
> > believe
> > > > that they are much cleaner than those that only combust. The usual
> > low-cost
> > > > stoves in developing countries almost universally use only wood (with
> > some
> > > > still-minor use of your briquettes of course). For those new to the
> > > > subject, the difference is whether there is a single air supply or two.
> > > > Does anyone reading this think that char-making stoves are not
> > inherently
> > > > cleaner?*
> > > > But I especially want to support your use of the term "densified
> > > > non-wood" - which I think is also much needed in char-making stoves.
> > Nat
> > > > Mulcahy of World Stoves always emphasizes the use of "densified
> > non-wood"
> > > > as one of the main advantage of his Lucia stove (which could combust or
> > > > gasify - but he chooses to operate in only a pyrolysis mode). See his
> > > > website for his rationales - which are (in part) similar to yours.
> > > > Several questions to you (as the person who probably knows the most
> > on
> > > > this densified non-wood cooking issue):
> > > > 1a. What are the relative advantages of making (not using)
> > pellets
> > > > vs briquettes?
> > > > It would seem that it should be much easier to "press" (I like your
> > > > closing below) pellets than briquettes (especially the "holey" type).
> > Do
> > > > you have any data on the relative power or energy and/ or cost
> > requirements
> > > > for production of pellets vs briquettes?
> > > >
> > > > 1b. For those wanting char and not ash, the charred pellet is
> > > > already in a wonderful form for application to soils. Pellets mean
> > some
> > > > extra costs for the fuel supply in the front end of cooking - but could
> > be a
> > > > wonderful boon both in burning more cleanly and evenly and in later
> > > > application of Biochar to the soil. The same is possibly/probably true
> > for
> > > > briquettes - which I presume break up easily after being pyrolyzed.
> > Do you
> > > > have any reason to think briquettes would be better than pellets in
> > either
> > > > pyrolysis or char-application terms?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You concluded:]
> > > >
> > > > "....and would avoid both the wood supply and the char producing
> > problems
> > > > in one go."
> > > >
> > > > [RWL: 2a. Re the first issue of supply (with which I agree),
> > I
> > > > have recently read an article (author's name forgotten - I will try to
> > find
> > > > it) that showed a breakdown of the well known global net primary
> > > > productivity (NPP) number of about 60 Gt C/yr. They had about half
> > going
> > > > into wood and half into leaves - a ratio I had not previously seen.
> > Since
> > > > you are promoting the former (leaves) over the latter (wood) - and
> > because
> > > > almost all rural stove users are now using only wood (and even many
> > > > briquettes and pellets seem to be made up of ground-up or chipped
> > wood),
> > > > have you seen this relative photosynthesis production ratio - which
> > would
> > > > seem to imply a huge wasted resource all over the world?
> > > >
> > > > 2b. But I don't understand your term "char producing problems".
> > To
> > > > me there are only benefits and advantages (at least with kitchen
> > stoves).
> > > > If you meant the horrible production of most charcoal out in the
> > boondocks -
> > > > with global warming and carcinogenic gases much worse than CO2 being
> > > > produced - then I agree. To prove that it is better for society to
> > promote
> > > > household production of Biochar (char placed in the ground) will be the
> > > > subject of my next message. Briefly it is that we need to make the
> > economic
> > > > argument that Biochar's two main advantages (carbon sequestration and
> > soil
> > > > improvements) outweigh the further combustion of the char for its
> > energy
> > > > value. Two main reasons that I think we can make this argument (which
> > I do
> > > > not contend has already been proven). First is the 2:1 advantage in
> > the
> > > > three-flows of money (which seem in the same ballpark). But more
> > important
> > > > is that the first two monetary flows (climate and soils) are both
> > > > investments - with good payback over long time periods. The energy
> > > > application of the char is only a single use - no out-year advantages
> > at
> > > > all. More coming on the many out-year advantages of Biochar.
> > > >
> > > > This is not to suggest that you do not believe in all this already -
> > but
> > > > others could interpret your sentence to favor burning of "densified
> > > > non-woody biomass" rather than pyrolysis of the same.
> > > >
> > > > Ron]
> > > >
> > > > pressing on,
> > > >
> > > > Richard Stanley
> > > > www.legacyfound.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 29, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [RWL: I have snipped this to keep the responses separate - being
> > different
> > > > issues.]
> > > >
> > > > Dear Friends
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Ron that $10 is a believable figure for an improved stove
> > with
> > > > a dramatic (90%) reduction in emissions of PM. For the +$50 stove
> > > >
> > > > <snipped>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Boston Nyer
> > > Graduate Student
> > > Department of Civil, Environmental, and Architectural Engineering
> > > University of Colorado at Boulder
> > > (585) 503-3459
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Boston Nyer
> Graduate Student
> Department of Civil, Environmental, and Architectural Engineering
> University of Colorado at Boulder
> (585) 503-3459
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