[Stoves] What will people pay for a stove?

Mon Nov 29 23:56:49 CST 2010

Dear Stovers,
the stove cost goes up because most of the modern stoves are metallic or
have major parts that are metallic or ceramic. These stoves or parts are
made in a central factory and distributed through a supply chain. It is well
known that the production cost of most of the goods that we buy in the shops
is just a tenth of what we pay. In the case of stoves, we did an experiment
about 25 years ago. We produced a standard design having a high efficiency
(emissions were not considered in those days), and then made a mold for this
model, An artisan in a village would buy the mold from us and make the
stoves out of mud (or cement) in the village or sometime in situ in the
kitchen itself. The household paid him the cost of the material plus about a
dollar for his labour. We installed through this system annually 150,000
improved stoves. There were of course drawbacks in the this system. Many
artisans changed our design to suit their whims. We had no control over the
material used or the quality of the final product, so that the stoves were
often of substandard quality, but at least some people got good stoves at a
reasonable price. When Shell Foundation decided to support our programme,
they threw out all the models that we used to install, because of the
emissions. We spent almost two years on developing new models that would
satisfy the donor agency, but the new stoves looked so different from the
traditional ones, and they cost so much more, that their rate of
acceptance went down drastically, and Shell Foundation withdrew their
support because we could not fulfill the targets that we had promised to
fulfill. This calamity befell us because the new stoves were centrally
manufactured in a factory and they were costlier than the old ones by a
factor of 3 to 5. Thus the entire programme collapsed. The business is
chronically in the red. We started out with the intention of providing
better stoves to the poor, but our present clients are rich people. They own
an LPG stove, but they want the improved stove because LPG is not readily
available in the village and therefore they want to use it sparingly. Also
the government policies are incomprehensible. Domestic LPG, which is used by
the rich, is heavily subsidized, but the same government would not subsidize
a biomass burning stove. So the poor, who need a cheap, affordable and good
stove, still don't get one.
Yours
A.D.Karve

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Charlie Sellers <csellers42 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>  I changed the subject line because we were drifting, and retained
> Crispin's comments below because they bring up good points.  We seem to be
> mixing up what people "can" pay (e.g. if they take into account their fuel
> expense savings due to a new stove, or possible future income from biochar)
> and what they "will" pay.  Too often we seem to be assuming that all of the
> world follows first world logic in making financial decisions - *we* all
> may hope to choose a new appliance based on a careful analysis of the
> different models available and the potential cost savings, but people in
> other circumstances often reason in other ways.  During my stove projects in
> Central/South America I certainly see the leaking of cash on hand - no
> matter how low the local income, kids seem to have money for a frozen
> chocolate covered banana, and I once saw an entire ice cream cart hauled by
> truck high into the Andes to deliver treats to a distant weekly market.
>  Even people with low incomes want some of it to be disposable, and I doubt
> that we are easily going to be able to change that by insisting that
> sacrificing their little pleasures (to save and buy a stove) might be in
> their best interest.  We have lots of information available to us when
> making such decisions, and we value what we read and hear, but what if in a
> different culture they are used to only believing what they experience for
> themselves?
>
> Another leakage I see often is for alcohol - women in some areas know that
> they must spend all of their money by the weekend, or it will be spent by
> *someone* on whatever the local alcoholic beverage is.  It is likely that
> they don't see that they have another option for now - saving money in banks
> has not been something that people in their situation do, and until we
> change that then leakage will be all too common and improved stoves mostly
> too expensive.  Microfinance (experiencing problems right now in India) is
> one approach, but micro-savings is something I expect we'll be seeing more
> of:
>
> http://povertynewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/gates-foundation-to-give-500-million.html
> And as we know, making such financial services options available to women
> is particularly important - they tend to gather the fuel and get the most
> exposure to smoke.  But they don't necessarily make spending (or savings)
> decisions for the family, and that situation is hard to change.
>
> The western stoving community still too often seems fixated on technical
> aspects of getting improved stoves into the marketplace, when we need to
> spend a little more time trying to think like our potential customers.  For
> example, before we push biochar from stoves, shouldn't we be soliciting
> reports from the field on efforts to determine if people are willing to
> divert potential cooking fuel to their fields - based on the scanty evidence
> that we can provide to them on potential agricultural benefits?  We may have
> published papers that support our point of view - certainly we are learning
> more every day - but can we presently offer a persuasive explanation that
> low income families will accept?  Thinking like a single mother who is
> probably already overwhelmed with responsibilities, it is hard for me to
> justify paying more for a char producing stove when no one has yet
> demonstrated to *me* more of the vegetables *my* family eats from the soil
> type in *my own* backyard with the amount of char *I* will produce.  TLUDs
> of course have other benefits - low emissions, cleaner pots, possibilities
> for cheaper fuels, etc. - and those we can easily demonstrate to people, so
> we should start with these.
>
> The only ICS that is successful is one that people will buy and keep using
> in an efficient manner (and recommend to their neighbors) - how can we
> design stoves and stove programs so that this happens?  I suggest that it is
> by spending a little more time being realistic about sociocultural issues
> within our target communities, instead of imagining that they think just
> like we do.  What choices to people have, and how do they make them?
>
> Charlie
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Mon, November 29, 2010 10:36:48 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable
> Development
>
>  Dear Boston
>
>
>
> In Zambia, a charcoal stove that costs more than $3.50 won’t sell. The
> standard one is $1.50.
>
>
>
> The reason is the inability to accumulate that much cash. I have seen work
> by Cecil Cooking showing that ten days income is the maximum cash people can
> generally accumulate (about 1/3 of a month’s income). Above that is starts
> to leak out of the pocket.
>
>
>
> $10 is above the cost people can usually pay for a stove. $5 has a chance
> without finance (like two payments).
>
>
>
> Here in Ulaanbaatar people can afford to pay $75 if it is financed, no
> problem. The Xas Bank is doing exactly that. The stoves are subsidised by
> $50 as well (it is actually a $125 stove). It saves about $300 per heating
> season so it is a no-brainer if financing is offered.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
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-- 
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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