[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4

Nat of WorldStove nataniele at aim.com
Tue Apr 5 19:57:32 CDT 2011


DearCrispin, Ron, James, Otto, Ronald, Richard and all,
 
 
I see nowthis wonderful email exchange and chinme in with some information.  In many of the ACP countires I have beenworking in there are many cast aluminium charcoal stoves.  Whenever I am in a new location I try todocument all available local stoves and I would be happy to provide jpegs to ofthese aluminium stoves to anyone who might be helped by having them.
 
As for myown stoves, Ron is correct, several of our stoves have injection moulded topand bottom plates.  We are currentlyworking on the newest evolution of these and will be investing in new toolingthis year. 


Ronald is also correct in noting the thermal conducive properties ofaluminium and if care is taken, it is entirely possible to produce a stove witha flame that is above the melting point of aluminium with little or noappreciable effect (for the first two to three years) on some of the aluminium components. 
 
Best thingof all about ALis haw at the end of the stove’s life it can be easily recycled into newstoves. 
 
Hope thishelps the discussion
 
Nat ofWorldStove





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Sent: Tue, Apr 5, 2011 9:00 pm
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4


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Today's Topics:

   1. Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
   2. Re: Jamaican cooking (James Robinson)
   3. Re: Jamaican cooking (Otto Formo)
   4. Re: Jamaican cooking (Ron Larson)
   5. Re: Jamaican cooking (Ronald Hongsermeier)
   6. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
   7. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
   8. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
   9. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
  10. Re: Jamaican cooking (Richard Stanley)
  11. Re: Jamaican cooking (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
  12. Re: Jamaican cooking (rongretlarson at comcast.net)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:37:50 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <01cd01cbf2ff$ca84bc70$5f8e3550$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Friends

Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
'traditional stove' which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
one.

Thanks
Crispin

 

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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:02:26 +0200
From: James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <BANLkTim3-MBZqPXvN6pY2szcsLHf7Sj4mA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hi Crispin,

There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page

http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

<http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers
James Robinson
UJ SeTAR

On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Friends
>
> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
> one.
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:23:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no>
To: James Robinson <jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com>, Discussion of biomass
    cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID:
    <17313093.1368.1301988213780.JavaMail.adm-moff at moffice2.nsc.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear charcoal fans,
This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?

I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the aluminium 
will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).
They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into charcoal 
will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy content 
in the fuel.
Otto

> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]
> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
> 
> Hi Crispin,
> 
> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page
> 
> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373
> 
> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers
> James Robinson
> UJ SeTAR
> 
> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Dear Friends
> >
> > Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
> > ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
> > told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
> > one.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 05:40:12 -0600
From: Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <54D38ADF-1CF0-41AF-857D-AA7F9981D7AF at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

Otto and list

Good point below.  We probably can't outlaw the jiko (as evidenced by the 
failure of many countries to effectively outlaw char production).  However, 
maybe they can receive a big tax, with proceeds solely toward char-making stove 
assistance.

I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type stove.  I 
know of some use.

Ron

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 5, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Otto Formo <formo-o at online.no> wrote:

> Dear charcoal fans,
> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?
> 
> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 
aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.
> 
> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).
> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 
charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy 
content in the fuel.
> Otto
> 
>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
>> 
>> Hi Crispin,
>> 
>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page
>> 
>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373
>> 
>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers
>> James Robinson
>> UJ SeTAR
>> 
>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Friends
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
>>> one.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> Crispin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>> 
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> 
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> 
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> 
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> 
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> 
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> 
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> 



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:32:00 +0200
From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <4D9B0BC0.5000907 at web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Dear Otto,

I am not a "Charcoal Fan", I push all my air through my lungs, but get 
enough oxidation done to do a little thinking.

However, not having seen the original results due to lack of time, 
wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the 
total system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal 
have decided to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are 
burning, they might even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling.

One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer 
capabilities make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. I'm 
also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the 
steel for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that 
out there might be another factor to add into your total equation of life.

regards,

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en

On 05.04.2011 09:23, Otto Formo wrote:
> Dear charcoal fans,
> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?
>
> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 
aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.
>
> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).
> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 
charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy 
content in the fuel.
> Otto
>
>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
>>
>> Hi Crispin,
>>
>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page
>>
>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373
>>
>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers
>> James Robinson
>> UJ SeTAR
>>
>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Friends
>>>
>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
>>> one.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
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>>>
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>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>>> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3550 - Release Date: 04/04/11
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:44:00 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <02a301cbf397$8814b1e0$983e15a0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Otto

 

There are two devices which are quite different in performance: the Jiko
stove (I think the word jiko means 'charcoal stove') and the Improved Kenyan
Jiko (IKJ) which is the one to which most people refer when saying 'Jiko' or
'JIKO'. The IKJ is a ceramic lined jiko. It was developed by a school
teacher and made a commercially viable reality by Hugh Allen (a ceramics
specialist, presently head of a AT centre in Tanzania).

 

The Jamaican stove is made to have pots sit into the skirt and is not like
the IKJ at all in that sense. It is an interesting device: normally jikos
are not strong enough to take the pressure of having a pot inside the
ceramic because the clay is so poor and the fit not much better. 

 

>I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the
aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.

 

I am not sure how improved it will be in the fuel use sense, but I am
interested in knowing what you think are the toxic emissions from melting
aluminum. That would be valuable to know.

 

I am not sure we can assume the fire will, with any ease, melt the body. I
recently filed a patent on an aluminum coal stove. J

 

>Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).

 

Actually they said it was the thermal efficiency that is 40%. That is low
for a charcoal stove. However whether or not it was worth introducing
depends on the thermal efficiency of the baseline product. Might have been
15%.

 

>They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into
charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the
energy content in the fuel.

 

I think the assumption is that people involved in the stove business already
know how charcoal is made.

 

Regards

Crispin

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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:44:00 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <02b701cbf397$8b2685c0$a1739140$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks James

 

http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373

For those who can?t see the link the info is below.

Robert v.d. Plas said it was about 20 years ago. The price seems to have a
bit of a ?development NGO involved? air to it: $120 ??? Good grief.
Mo?ambicanos make things more complex than that literally in an open field
and sell them for a few dollars. Same for Darfur. Huh.

>From the look of the tapers it seems it can be made using tropical West
African techniques (for example Liberian founders). The skill set difference
between the Sahelian and the coastal founders is remarkable for the fact
there is such a difference. The Sahelians would have no problem at all
making that stove. I have seen them make pots that require a 5 part mould,
produced ?in the bush? without even using a draw and cope.

Well that is an interesting design as well. If the pots were small, they
would drop into the taper and sit quite close to a very small fire, becoming
shrouded at the same time.

Regards

Crispin

 

New Improved Cookstove

[edit] <http://www.hedon.info/Edit+Stove&itemId=9373>  

Location, continent: 
Africa
America North
America South
Location, country: 
Jamaica 
Senegal 
Bolivia
Paraguay

Stove information

Stove ID: JAM2hm
Model: Improved
Application: Households
Type of stove: Portable
Fuel: Charcoal

Construction

Materials: Metal
Mix
Other metal
Dimensions: 220
Construction method: Device makers: Local founders
Construction method :Casting small founders use pattern provided by the
project, together with moulding box and sand. Scrap aluminium is melted in
furnace and poured into pattern, which is placed in moulding box with sand.

Dissemination

Availability: Commercially available
Distributors: Through private-sector involvment: wholesalers, retailers and
hardware merchants, artisans.

Price in US$: 120 (1993: 1 US$: 23.8 J$) 
Start date: Tue 31 of Dec., 1991
Project/Program or commercial distribution: Approximately 1,800 improved
cookstoves sold through project personnel, manufacturers and private sector.
(all figures 1993)

Number of stoves sold or distributed: 1800

Performance

Efficiency: (lab. tests) 40%
Fuel saving: (field test) 30%

Contact details 

Address: New Improved Cookstove Project. Ministry of Public Utilities Mining
and Energy, 36 Trafalgar Road, Kingston 10, Jamaica, West Indies

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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:51:43 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <02c101cbf3a0$fbf1b5f0$f3d521d0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Ron

 

>?wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the
total system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal have
decided to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are burning,
they might even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling.

 

This was looked at very carefully by Peter Coughlin who makes the POCA, the
technology underlying the recent capture of a major award. The benefits of
saving even a small amount of charcoal, say 15%, are quite large in terms of
the current practises and the total emissions. It certainly pays (in carbon
trade) better to save charcoal than to save wood.

 

>One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer capabilities
make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. 

 

Same for copper. Even using a cutting torch it is difficult to melt a block
of copper. Steel can be melted with char if you have a fan (as Philips found
out!) so it is more about heat balance and flow than the material.

 

>I'm also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the
steel for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that out
there might be another factor to add into your total equation of life.



A consideration here is that once produced, aluminum is easily recycled with
a very low energy cost which is why roadside producers can turn out products
with almost no equipment. It is not only the life cycle of the product that
should be considered by the life cycle of the material itself.


Crispin von Suchenachgutenschwei?er

 

 

regards,

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en



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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:51:43 -0400
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <02cc01cbf3a0$fc985630$f5c90290$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Dear Ron

>I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type
stove.  I know of some use.

I am interested to know what you heard. It is a design that is ripe for
inserting three curved clay tiles, n'est-ce pas?

Regards
Crispin





------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 08:44:47 -0700
From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID: <2B327608-8A6D-4B1E-9504-C18578A190DF at legacyfound.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Otto,
.......... shhhhhhhhh !
with kind regards,
Richard Stanley
 
On Apr 5, 2011, at 12:23 AM, Otto Formo wrote:

> Dear charcoal fans,
> This one looks very much like a Jiko from Kenya.........whats the news?
> 
> I guess it will look very nice and "improved", but most certainly the 
aluminium will start melting and create toxic emmissions.
> 
> Fuel saving 40% (fieldtest).
> They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 
charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy 
content in the fuel.
> Otto
> 
>> From: James Robinson [jamesrobinson77 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 2011-04-05 09:02:26 MEST
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org]
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
>> 
>> Hi Crispin,
>> 
>> There's this one in the hedon archive, drawings at the bottom of the page
>> 
>> http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373
>> 
>> <http://www.hedon.info/View+Stove?itemId=9373>Cheers
>> James Robinson
>> UJ SeTAR
>> 
>> On 4 April 2011 21:37, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Friends
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know about an aluminum charcoal stove that one could call a
>>> ?traditional stove? which is made and sold in Jamaica? Robert van der Plas
>>> told me about seeing it a long time ago and I would like to get a look at
>>> one.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> Crispin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>> 
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> 
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> 
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> 
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> 
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> 
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> 
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> 




------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 16:09:23 +0000 (UTC)
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
Message-ID:
    <274543516.3587251.1302019763630.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Crispin eta l 

I was thinking of Nat Mulcahy's Lucia - where I have seen aluminum end caps (and 
steel - not sure what is current in his thinking). 

Ron 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com> 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 8:51:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking 

Dear Ron 

>I'd like to hear anyone's experience with aluminum for the latter-type 
stove. I know of some use. 

I am interested to know what you heard. It is a design that is ripe for 
inserting three curved clay tiles, n'est-ce pas? 

Regards 
Crispin 



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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:13:42 +0000 (UTC)
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>,  Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
    <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking
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    <1478077999.3592077.1302023622424.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
    
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Crispin: 

I spent some time on this before realizing there were two "Rons" in here and 
that I was not the intended recipient of this one below. I am sehrschlecht 
Schwei?er . 

The main addition I think important here is to respond to this statement today 
in your reply to Otto. 



Otto: ">They do not mentioned anything about the prosessing of the biomass into 
charcoal will release greenhouse emissions and loose about 50-60% of the energy 
content in the fuel." 



Crispin: " I think the assumption is that people involved in the stove business 
already know how charcoal is made." 
RWL: My assumption is that how it was made never appeared in anyone's efficiency 
calculations - despite their probably not knowing for any particular batch - and 
probably not caring. Now it is time to care and to include char production 
efficiency in Jiko efficiency statements. This is for the sake of the forests 
and of the atmosphere and global warming.. The use of charcoal for cooking is an 
abomination and should be as much outlawed as is the growing practice of 
outlawing charcoal production. My own experience with charcoal in Sudan is that 
charcoal making/use has ruined that fine country. 
One can improve lots of things - maybe even buggy whips - but we should be 
talking here on this list of something other than sub-optimum solutions. With 
charcoal-making stoves, the users can make money - not expend it. The made-char 
should be put in the ground - as is being done for all (?) :Lucia stoves. 
The subject of aluminum vs steel vs ceramics is great. 

Ron Holzkohler Larson 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com> 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 8:51:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking 




Dear Ron 



>?wouldn't a reduction in the amount of _charcoal_ used also reduce the total 
system effects? I have to assume that the people burning charcoal have decided 
to do so. If I can reduce the amount of charcoal they are burning, they might 
even have enough extra cash to buy a tree seedling. 



This was looked at very carefully by Peter Coughlin who makes the POCA, the 
technology underlying the recent capture of a major award. The benefits of 
saving even a small amount of charcoal, say 15%, are quite large in terms of the 
current practises and the total emissions. It certainly pays (in carbon trade) 
better to save charcoal than to save wood. 



>One interesting thing about aluminum is that its heat transfer capabilities 
make it surprising hard to melt by a very small fire. 



Same for copper. Even using a cutting torch it is difficult to melt a block of 
copper. Steel can be melted with char if you have a fan (as Philips found out!) 
so it is more about heat balance and flow than the material. 



>I'm also not aware of the net "greenhouse emissions" of turning out the steel 
for a stove vs. the aluminum for a stove, but if you check that out there might 
be another factor to add into your total equation of life. 



A consideration here is that once produced, aluminum is easily recycled with a 
very low energy cost which is why roadside producers can turn out products with 
almost no equipment. It is not only the life cycle of the product that should be 
considered by the life cycle of the material itself. 


Crispin von Suchenachgutenschwei?er 





regards, 

Ronald von Kannschlechtschwei?en 


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