[Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon

Fri Dec 30 23:14:07 CST 2011

Dear Kevin, Crispin and Ron,
I have been conducting experiments, off and on, for almost a decade on
effect of charcoal applied to the soil. Most of the work consisted of very
preliminary experiments, just to find out if application of charcoal gave
positive results. I would have started a systematic study, if the
preliminary results had indicated that this was a useful technology. I
never got beyond the stage of preliminary experiments, because they did not
reveal to me any beneficial effects on crop yield. I never reported the
results in any formal publication, because the experiments were of a very
preliminary nature, not conducted in statistically approved designs.
Secondly, I want to say that It is generally the tendency among scientists
to cite references that support one's findings. So picking and choosing
of evidence that supports one's point of view is quite common in scientific
publications.
Yours
A.D.Karve

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:

> Dear Tom
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: <crispinpigott at gmail.com>; "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar
> -Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon
>
>
> ...del...
>
>>
>> Biochar is clearly work in progress but there are many applications that
>> have shown positive results. There are many reasons to keep working on it.
>>
>> # EXACTLY!! The so-called "Friends of Biochar" are in many ways its worst
> enemies, by making false and misleading claims, or at the very least,
> claims which are not reasonable and repeatable, and by raising unreasonable
> expectations. Such "overstepping of the facts" is "grist for the mills of
> the Biochar Detractors".
>
> # I feel very bad for the poor and desperate Farmers who committed their
> limited resources to biochar ventures that may have been destined to
> failure even before they start. These poor Farmers can be one crop failure
> away from starvation. These are not Academic Research projects, where
> failure to get the hoped-for results is a mere matter of scientific
> curiosity. Failure to get the hoped for results can literally mean
> starvation and death. Fat people with pension plans may not appreciate this
> cruel reality.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
>
> Tom
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stoves-bounces at lists.**bioenergylists.org<stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.**bioenergylists.org<stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
>> On Behalf Of Crispin
>> Pemberton-Pigott
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 5:12 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -
>> Unfulfilled
>> Promises in Cameroon
>>
>> Dear Friends
>>
>> 1. There is a reasonable review of the issues raised at
>> http://geoengineeringpolitics.**blogspot.com/2011/12/biochar-**
>> fund-giving-bioch<http://geoengineeringpolitics.blogspot.com/2011/12/biochar-fund-giving-bioch>
>> ar-bad-name.html drawing the obvious conclusion that one project, good or
>> bad, does not make or break a technology.
>>
>> 2. Readers will note from reports that the application rates were 10 to 20
>> tons per hectare. This is the same range I used in my calculations for the
>> stove-produced char earlier this year. The indications are that if stoves
>> are to be a major source for biochar applied to agriculture, the timeline
>> for conversion/meaningful application is not 7 years as indicated by
>> Biochar
>> Fund, but considerably longer.
>>
>> 3. If the charcoal production rate was 12.5% and the source material was
>> wood, they applied about 20 tons per ha, and they used about 1/2 the
>> biomass
>> as wood input to the charcoal kiln, it means they used 320 tons of biomass
>> to treat a hectare (320,000 kg). If a family were to produce cooking stove
>> char at twice that efficiency at a rate of 0,5 kg per day, it would take
>> 320,000 days to treat one hectare, roughly a millenium. This is a
>> statistically significant difference in the estimated time for biochar
>> production.
>>
>> 4. As there are suggestions that as much as 50% of applied char is missing
>> (not sequestered) after only one year in some soils, so there maybe a need
>> to re-apply char. There may be an upper limit for the carbon content of
>> biologically active soil (self-limiting). It seems to confirm strong
>> variability in the results.
>>
>> 5. What is not clear to me is that charcoal application to soil has
>> anything
>> like a universally positive result, or that cooking stoves offer a
>> meaningful way to produce the quantities required to see the beneficial
>> effects, or that it would not be a great deal more efficient to make
>> charcoal on site or alternatively, to just bury the biomass as a green
>> manure fertiliser. Comparisons are required.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kevin C <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>> Sender: stoves-bounces at lists.**bioenergylists.org<stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:50:57
>> To: <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> Cc: Erich Knight<erichjknight at gmail.com>**;
>> biochar-policy<biochar-policy@**yahoogroups.com<biochar-policy at yahoogroups.com>>;
>> <biochar at yahoogroups.com>;
>> Discussion of biomass<stoves at lists.**bioenergylists.org<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -
>> Unfulfilled
>> Promises in Cameroon
>>
>> Quoting rongretlarson at comcast.net:
>>
>> Kevin and several lists:
>>>
>>> 1. You said below: "# I have read the BFW Report. What are the
>>> "Selected Quotes" to which you refer? "
>>>
>>> Answer: They were in the cite I gave about a dozen lines earlier (my
>>> second line under "2"):
>>>
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/biochar-production/**message/833<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-production/message/833>
>>> :
>>>
>>
>> # Thanks. However, I am reluctant to discuss selected quotes out of
>> context.
>> Selected quotes leave the door wide open for "cherry picking". If you
>> could
>> start by selecting a few of the quotes that you feel are most relevant,
>> tehn
>> we can focus on them in context.
>>
>>>
>>> 2. I think our discussion on Rademakers and BFW would go better after
>>> hearing your response to those quotes (of BFW).
>>>
>>
>> # I would suggest that neither of us are competent to discuss the
>> correctness and fairness (or incorrectness and unfairness of the BFW
>> Report,
>> unless we have first hand facts. Mr. Rademaker and his work are being
>> discussed in the BFW Report. Mr. Rademaker would have the first hand facts
>> to discuss or rebut the BFW Report. What does he say on the matter?
>>
>>>
>>> 3. I have more coming on this topic (which I put in a "Box" labeled
>>> "BFW" - not "Biochar", and certainly not "stoves").
>>>
>>
>> # Anything that leads to "Truth In Biochar", and makes it easier for a
>> Farmer to decide on the merits of Biochar utilization in his operation is
>> of
>> great interest to me.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kevin C" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>>> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>>> Cc: biochar at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion of biomass"
>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>,
>>> "Erich Knight"
>>> <erichjknight at gmail.com>, "biochar-policy"
>>> <biochar-policy at yahoogroups.**com <biochar-policy at yahoogroups.com>>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 2:01:42 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [biochar] [Stoves] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -
>>> Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon
>>>
>>> Quoting rongretlarson at comcast.net:
>>>
>>> Kevin and ccs:
>>>>
>>>> 1. This is getting complicated - as the dialog has shifted from the
>>>> BFW story on Africa/Rademakers over to the IBI material.prepared by
>>>> Kelpie Wilson. My perception is that you are looking for specific
>>>> information from both reports that were not intended and aren't
>>>> there. So I see no reason to respond to your questions about Kelpie's
>>>> IBI work .
>>>>
>>>
>>> # This is not complicated at all:
>>> a: BFW presents a report on biochar tests b. "Defenders of the Faith"
>>> demonize BFW, rather than showing where their Report is wrong in a
>>> factual, scientific, and professional manner.
>>> c: I made no mention of Kelpie's work.
>>> d: You would appear to be clouding the issue, to avoid dealing with
>>> the matter in a factual way. I am amused that you criticize me for
>>> asking for information that is not in the report, and which the report
>>> did not intend to convey (why the corn with biochar grew so well), yet
>>> you do not criticize Erich when he assumes that it was the biochar,
>>> and not other conditions, that made the corn grow so well. (more
>>> water, fertilizer, organic matter, manure, compost, better soil in
>>> general, better test management, etc.)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. The BFW story was covered on the biochar lists about a month ago;
>>>> see:
>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/**group/biochar-production/**message/833<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-production/message/833>
>>>> It is unfortunate that this story is started over again on the stoves
>>>> list. It doesn't belong - there is zero stoves aspect to the BFW
>>>> story..
>>>>
>>>
>>> # You yourself are using the Stoves List as a way to promote biochar
>>> production! How can you possibly say that the Article has no relevance
>>> to Stoves? If the BFW Article has a valid basis, then it would suggest
>>> that the potential for biochar is diminished. Nobody so far has
>>> refuted their article in a rational manner. Can you?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3. I look forward to hearing your reaction to the selected quotes
>>>> from BFW's report - which I presume you have not yet read.
>>>>
>>>
>>> # I have read the BFW Report. What are the "Selected Quotes" to which
>>> you refer?
>>>
>>> Best wishes for a happy and Prosperous 2012
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kevin C" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>>>> To: biochar at yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:37:12 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [biochar] [Stoves] allAfrica.com: Africa: Biochar -
>>>> Unfulfilled Promises in Cameroon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_**
>> lists.bioenergylists<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists>
>> .org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_**
>> lists.bioenergylists<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists>
>> .org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_**
>> lists.bioenergylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_**
> lists.bioenergylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>

-- 
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20111231/1c017286/attachment.html>