[Stoves] Testing Jatropha-seed stoves for toxic emissions

Wed Feb 2 10:47:44 CST 2011

Dear Paul
Subject: [Stoves] Testing Jatropha-seed stoves for toxic emissions

The nose is a great analytical tool. If you sniff the products of combustion 
from a TLUD running properly on non-toxic fuel, they will have a pleasant, 
or at least, not unpleasant smell. Pn the other hand, when not quite working 
properly, such as at starting, there can be visible smoke and an unpleasant 
smell. However, with non-toxic fuels, the "smell" is not particularily 
toxic. On the other hand, if Jatropha is used and if it is at a stage of 
combustion where it is making a visibly smokey fire, it is probably 
dangerous through containing non-consumed J-toxins.

There are lots of references advocating "Don't go near smoke from burning 
Poison Ivy." The same rule would probably apply for J-Smoke. "If you can 
smell J-Smoke, don't."

Thus, while a well operating TLUD may be perfectly safe on J-Fuel, there may 
be a significant problem or hazard at start-up. Perhaps teh simple solution 
is "When using J-Fuel, start it outside, and do not contact smoke. Take 
inside only after there is no visible smoke."

Best wishes,

Kevin Chisholm

>
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>  pts rule name              description
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> _SUMMARY_
>
> Dear Tom and all,
>
> Tom's message (below) raises two questions (each gets a separate  Subject 
> line).
>
> 1.  Testing for toxins in the emissions from the burning of whole 
> Jatropha seeds is a valid topic.  By far, most testing of Jatropha 
> burning is of the OIL and not of the whole seeds.  And therefore even  the 
> combustion devices are not the same.  One answer does resolve the  entire 
> question.
>
> 2.  TOXINS are NOT measured in the PEMS or other equipment available  to 
> stovers.  Toxins-testing needs specialized equipment.  Who has it  and who 
> will make it available or who will pay for such testing?  Some 
> universities could have such equipment.  Our best hope is at the major 
> centers that study Jatropha, but thus far they are researching the  J-oil 
> and not the J-seed, and certainly not in TLUD gasifiers.
>
> 3.  Even with the equipment, the right situations need to be tested.
>
> 4.  First, they need Jatropha seeds (available, but not easy to get.   If 
> you need some, contact me about possible sources.)
>
> 5.  Second, there are different ways and differnt devices that could  burn 
> the whole seeds, and testing needs to match the conditions of how  the 
> seeds would actually be combusted.  A smouldering pile of J-seeds  does 
> NOT have the same emissions (CO, PM, and now "toxins") as a  properly 
> functioning TLUD-FA gasifier.  I specifically said FA (Forced  Air) 
> because we have such devices ready for testing, but we do not yet  (close, 
> but not quite) for TLUD-ND (natural draft).
>
> 6.  Jatropha seeds as fuel are only the tip of the iceberg.  The  bigger 
> topic is "oil-rich biomass." (We will AVOID the food vs. fuel  debate by 
> only dealing with true waste biomass that does not feed  humans or 
> animals.)  One example is cashew shells, which have highly  caustic oils 
> and probably toxins.
>
> 7.  I hope that this message gets passed on into other Listservs or 
> directly to places which could actually conduct (or facilitate with 
> payment) the testing of whole Jatropha seeds in TLUD gasifiers.  On  this 
> topic, I am here to help (because this is certainly a  TLUD-related 
> topic), but it is far beyond my capabilities to  accomplish the needed 
> testing.
>
> 8.  I will bring this topic to the attention of each of the BEF Stove 
> Camps that will occur in areas with Jatropha production.
>
> Opinion:  J-seed stoves are in their infancy.  The J-seed TLUDs are  not 
> into households yet, so A) there is no need to slow down the  development 
> of the stoves while waiting for test results, and B) it is  a great time 
> to get the testing started before dissemination gets  started into 
> households.
>
> -- 
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Known to some as:  Dr. TLUD    Doc    Professor
> Phone (USA): 309-452-7072   SKYPE: paultlud   Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>
>
>
> Quoting Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>:
>
>> Crispin,
>>
>> Good thoughts. The Jatropha discussion was "toxic" in that it stimulated
>> quite a lively debate. We probably got more heat from the discussion than
>> from the stove on a cold and slightly windy day. No pot. It clearly needs
>> some careful testing. Good project for Winter stove camp (this week?)
>>
>> I didn't bring either of my testers. Unfortunately my TSI is in repair
>> (after burning it up testing a gasifier) and my Testo is in use at a 
>> steam
>> boiler. Stovers don't seem to carry them. I would have liked to have 
>> tested
>> the two Aprovecho charcoal stoves that were demonstrated.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Crispin
>> Pemberton-Pigott
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:28 PM
>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Jatropha cake properties]
>>
>> Dear Tom
>>
>> Thanks to Tom, Dr Tom and Dr Paul
>>
>> Did you put a pot on it? I am interested in whether or not the flames
>> touched the pot more than usual. That has to be judged by someone who 
>> knows
>> the stove and other fuels well. If the fuel is oilier, will it make the
>> flames longer to the point that they run along the pot creating more CO?
>>
>> It may be that a J-seed stove needs a different flame path length to get
>> great performance.
>>
>> Jes' thinkin'
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>> ++++++++
>> Burning Jatropha seed in a Tom Reed Woodgas Stove at ETHOS 2011. No
>> emergency vehicles were called and no adverse symptoms were recorded by
>> observers. Greatest danger was that the seeds "pop" occasionally.
>>
>> Thanks to Paul Anderson for the demonstration.
>>
>> Tom Miles
>>
>
>
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