[Stoves] Testing Jatropha-seed stoves for toxic emissions
Paul S. Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Wed Feb 2 21:54:20 CST 2011
Kevin,
Good summary of reasonable advice.
One additional factor is the use of a chimney (which currently is
essential for sufficient draft in a natural draft TLUD with J-seed
fuel).
Of course, testing is also needed about any toxins that come out of a
chimney, and issues of dilution. And then come scrubbers and filters
and other things that can also make the difference between acceptance
and non-acceptance.
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Quoting Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>:
> Dear Paul
> Subject: [Stoves] Testing Jatropha-seed stoves for toxic emissions
>
> The nose is a great analytical tool. If you sniff the products of
> combustion from a TLUD running properly on non-toxic fuel, they will
> have a pleasant, or at least, not unpleasant smell. Pn the other
> hand, when not quite working properly, such as at starting, there
> can be visible smoke and an unpleasant smell. However, with
> non-toxic fuels, the "smell" is not particularily toxic. On the
> other hand, if Jatropha is used and if it is at a stage of
> combustion where it is making a visibly smokey fire, it is probably
> dangerous through containing non-consumed J-toxins.
>
> There are lots of references advocating "Don't go near smoke from
> burning Poison Ivy." The same rule would probably apply for J-Smoke.
> "If you can smell J-Smoke, don't."
>
> Thus, while a well operating TLUD may be perfectly safe on J-Fuel,
> there may be a significant problem or hazard at start-up. Perhaps
> teh simple solution is "When using J-Fuel, start it outside, and do
> not contact smoke. Take inside only after there is no visible smoke."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
>>
>> Content analysis details: (0.0 points)
>>
>> pts rule name description
>> ---- ----------------------
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> _SUMMARY_
>>
>> Dear Tom and all,
>>
>> Tom's message (below) raises two questions (each gets a separate
>> Subject line).
>>
>> 1. Testing for toxins in the emissions from the burning of whole
>> Jatropha seeds is a valid topic. By far, most testing of Jatropha
>> burning is of the OIL and not of the whole seeds. And therefore
>> even the combustion devices are not the same. One answer does
>> resolve the entire question.
>>
>> 2. TOXINS are NOT measured in the PEMS or other equipment
>> available to stovers. Toxins-testing needs specialized equipment.
>> Who has it and who will make it available or who will pay for
>> such testing? Some universities could have such equipment. Our
>> best hope is at the major centers that study Jatropha, but thus far
>> they are researching the J-oil and not the J-seed, and certainly
>> not in TLUD gasifiers.
>>
>> 3. Even with the equipment, the right situations need to be tested.
>>
>> 4. First, they need Jatropha seeds (available, but not easy to
>> get. If you need some, contact me about possible sources.)
>>
>> 5. Second, there are different ways and differnt devices that
>> could burn the whole seeds, and testing needs to match the
>> conditions of how the seeds would actually be combusted. A
>> smouldering pile of J-seeds does NOT have the same emissions (CO,
>> PM, and now "toxins") as a properly functioning TLUD-FA gasifier.
>> I specifically said FA (Forced Air) because we have such devices
>> ready for testing, but we do not yet (close, but not quite) for
>> TLUD-ND (natural draft).
>>
>> 6. Jatropha seeds as fuel are only the tip of the iceberg. The
>> bigger topic is "oil-rich biomass." (We will AVOID the food vs.
>> fuel debate by only dealing with true waste biomass that does not
>> feed humans or animals.) One example is cashew shells, which have
>> highly caustic oils and probably toxins.
>>
>> 7. I hope that this message gets passed on into other Listservs or
>> directly to places which could actually conduct (or facilitate with
>> payment) the testing of whole Jatropha seeds in TLUD gasifiers. On
>> this topic, I am here to help (because this is certainly a
>> TLUD-related topic), but it is far beyond my capabilities to
>> accomplish the needed testing.
>>
>> 8. I will bring this topic to the attention of each of the BEF
>> Stove Camps that will occur in areas with Jatropha production.
>>
>> Opinion: J-seed stoves are in their infancy. The J-seed TLUDs are
>> not into households yet, so A) there is no need to slow down the
>> development of the stoves while waiting for test results, and B) it
>> is a great time to get the testing started before dissemination
>> gets started into households.
>>
>> --
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
>> Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com>:
>>
>>> Crispin,
>>>
>>> Good thoughts. The Jatropha discussion was "toxic" in that it stimulated
>>> quite a lively debate. We probably got more heat from the discussion than
>>> from the stove on a cold and slightly windy day. No pot. It clearly needs
>>> some careful testing. Good project for Winter stove camp (this week?)
>>>
>>> I didn't bring either of my testers. Unfortunately my TSI is in repair
>>> (after burning it up testing a gasifier) and my Testo is in use at a steam
>>> boiler. Stovers don't seem to carry them. I would have liked to have tested
>>> the two Aprovecho charcoal stoves that were demonstrated.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Crispin
>>> Pemberton-Pigott
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:28 PM
>>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Jatropha cake properties]
>>>
>>> Dear Tom
>>>
>>> Thanks to Tom, Dr Tom and Dr Paul
>>>
>>> Did you put a pot on it? I am interested in whether or not the flames
>>> touched the pot more than usual. That has to be judged by someone who knows
>>> the stove and other fuels well. If the fuel is oilier, will it make the
>>> flames longer to the point that they run along the pot creating more CO?
>>>
>>> It may be that a J-seed stove needs a different flame path length to get
>>> great performance.
>>>
>>> Jes' thinkin'
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>> ++++++++
>>> Burning Jatropha seed in a Tom Reed Woodgas Stove at ETHOS 2011. No
>>> emergency vehicles were called and no adverse symptoms were recorded by
>>> observers. Greatest danger was that the seeds "pop" occasionally.
>>>
>>> Thanks to Paul Anderson for the demonstration.
>>>
>>> Tom Miles
>>>
>>
>>
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