[Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia
Fireside Hearth
firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com
Thu Jul 28 01:10:33 CDT 2011
Hi Kevin......
For those who read the story behind my stove, It started as a pellet burner with a 12 volt auger and feeding system with many parts stolen from my chevrolet delay windshield wiper system. That was too easy. Who could fail with a 35/1 air to fuel ratio. Making a wood burner burn as smoke free and with as little a per hour fuel usage was more difficult. Making something that could burn saltwater driftwood,charcoal, and or coal was the next step. The difference in coal between washington, or the east coast is huge, and the same is true from what I hear of the Mongolian coal. IF I got a good sample ( which I think I may have coming to me) I could prove to myself weather or not I can do the same with it. But burning a fuel not common to the end user leaves allot in question......Yes?
From here on should you wish to chat further please respond to me outside the list. I got some fairly nasty comments sent directly to me and feel this list is not a place where I will get anything done. I am finding much faster rate of action in other places.
Sincerely..........Roger and Bridget Lehet
firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 22:52:37 -0300
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia
Dear Fireside
Crispin gave you a typical analysis for the coal he used
when he designed, built, tested, and taught local Mongolians how to build very
efficient coal stoves. Why not start simply by trying to burn local coal in your
stove? Perhaps your stove might not work with coal. It would be good to know
this before you went to the expense of getting a coal sample shipped in from
Mongolia.
Have you tried burning pellets, wood chips, and stickwood
in your stove? A stove designed to burn 5 pound extruded fire logs may not work
well on these other fuels.
Don't underestimate the importance of Science and
Measurements as a vital part of the Art of Stove Design.
Best wishes,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From:
Fireside Hearth
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:49
PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Coal stoves in
Mongolia
Hello and thanks for
responding.
So lets start
with this. I am no where near as educated in the scientific language as this
group, no doubt. What I have created is a double burn system which can go for
up to 12 hours in one 5 lb log. I see NO SMOKE from our 3"stack once I get to
a temperature of over 600 deg. f. Our secondary combustion temps run in excess
of 1500 deg. F. creating a smokeless burn for hours, and can be reloaded
during use. I do realize that Coal (not a favorite of mine) does burn
differently and I would like to test my stove on this fuel so as to have the
chance to tweek my unit to burn it cleanly. I am reading and trying to
understand all that I can. Sometimes I think that too much science makes
things too complex. Maybe being a simple guy without all the math is what
helped me do what I did. Either way there is no way of getting around the fact
that what this stove does do is to get more heat energy out of the same fuel
load, and releasing less into the environment. Both are characteristics
necessary for attacking these issues. By the way we watched this work in the
puget sound area, why could it not work in Mongolia?
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:35:57 +0000
From:
rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject:
[Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia
Crispin
(cc list)
1. Changed thread name to reflect the
dialog.
2. I had great hopes (based on your writings) for
a simple Mongolian BLDD. Where does that fit into the general scheme for
Mongolia? The BLDD doesn't seem appropriate for most cooking chores -
but seemed pretty perfect for heating. (Not thinking about making coke -
but there should be that possibility also Ron
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
<crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, July
25, 2011 7:53:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to
BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting
of facts.
Dear
Roger
P.S. any idea's
how I can get a sample of the coal being used in Mongolia? I understand they
use 4 metric tones a year by 1,300,000 yurts per year. I think I could cut
this down to less than one ton, but need a sample of this
stuff.
Saving
coal is not as straight forward as burning less. The need for heat is
absolute, meaning that you have to deliver an average of 4kW minimum into the
home. If the system is 80% efficient it means having a 5kW fire going
constantly.
The
number of yurts (gers, as they are called) is about 100,000 with the number
declining slowly as people build more permanent housing. Coal is not used
outside Ulaanbaatar domestically, and in fact viewed historically is only a
recently used fuel.
I
am interested in know what you think of as ‘clean’ with your coal burner. We
are expressing the emissions in terms of heat delivered into the home so that
the figure incorporates the thermal efficiency into the number. For stoves
receiving a subsidy to the homeowner, the CO limit is 7 g/MJ delivered and
PM2.5 is 70 mg/MJ. Some stoves are below 1 mg/MJ which is extremely clean. One
is a crossdraft and the other is a TLUD that can be refuelled under certain
circumstances. They are very different to look at.
The
coal consumption per urban domestic home is 4,500 kg per year on average,
burning about 1 kg per hour in winter. The coal is from the Nalaikh Mine,
mostly, and the analysis is 25% moisture, 50% volatiles after drying and 8-12%
ash. The sulphur is very low at <0.4%.
It
lights easily and has enormous volumes of smoke if placed on a burning fire
(which is the main air quality problem in UB). If a TLUD is refuelled hot, it
is a nightmare. It is essential that the stove be refuelled for continuous
operation. That has led to hopper stoves having the most promise.
The
qualifying stoves range from $80 to $160 and one imported TLUD made of cast
iron with a ceramic liner is $275 or so. The cleanest, cheap stove is a
crossdraft burner with a flame tube for the smoke and CO to burn inside the
heat exchanger. This layout has been successful in several very different
products.
Regards
Crispin
> Date: Mon, 25
Jul 2011 06:33:04 +0200
> From: rwhongser at web.de
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org;
crispinpigott at gmail.com
>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's
latestimprecisereporting of facts.
>
> Dear Crispin,
>
> 2SISTLUDPSXDCPZ-RF
>
> There, I think we're making
progress now.
>
> Ronald von der AS(BY)EAA
>
> p.s.
Aussenstelle(Bayern)EuropäischeAbkurzungsAmt /*bitte nicht bei der EU
anzeigen!*/
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----
> Von: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>
Gesendet: Jul 25, 2011 5:36:45 AM
> An: "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
Betreff: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's
latestimprecisereporting of facts.
>
> >Thanks for the
reminder about names, Andrew. Here's another:
> >
> >I have
been trying to characterise the combustion type for the GIZ 7 series coal
stoves in Mongolia and it does not fit easily into standard categories. To
make matters worse Prof Lodoysamba has used a true TLUD charge of coal in the
combustion chamber to start the stove and it was very successful. That means
it is a TLUD-ignited cross-draft stove with a continuously pyrolysing zone at
the bottom of a refillable hopper.
> >
> >That to occupy the
nomenclaturists for a while.
> >
> >Regards
>
>Crispin
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: "Andrew
C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
>
>Sender: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:23:57
> >To: Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's
latestimprecise
> > reporting of facts.
> >
> >This
is a discussion list. Some of us discuss. Some of us lurk. Some of
>
>us know what we are talking about. Some of us wish we knew what we
were
> >talking about. Sometimes we don't volunteer a distinction.
Some of us
> >act. Some of us act up -- once in awhile. Sometimes
things get out of
> >hand, but we get over it -- usually. If you
thought the discussion was
> >hot on CAGW and CO2 credits, wait until
we start in on nomenclature.
> >Welcome to the list.
>
>
> >
> >Andrew Parker (Not AJH)
> >
>
>
> >On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:34:48 -0600, Fireside Hearth
>
><firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hello....
>
>>
> >> As a new kid on the block I am sorta surprised by
the amount of
> >> time spent by people who seem to care, on such
a point. You all will not
> >> agree....probably ever! There,
someone said it! Now in the amount of
> >> time wasted, what could
have been accomplished through
> >> action........talk is
cheap!
> >
> >
> >
>
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