[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1
Kobus Venter
vuthisa at yahoo.com
Sat Nov 5 05:14:57 CDT 2011
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> Original Message:
> ---------------------------------
>
> From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: November 1, 2011 10:42:36 AM
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
> (Frank Shields)
> 2. Re: [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
> (Kevin)
> 3. re biochar production (Paal wendelbo)
> 4. DUE 2012 Call for papers (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:19:52 -0700
> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14,
> Issue 17
> Message-ID: <001101cc981b$36888f80$a399ae80$@compostlab.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
> Lots of research is needed in many directions. Biochar makes many things
> 'look' better due to its dark color.
>
>
>
> I think a good research would be to look at biochar added to a compost tea
> and determine if it aids in stabilizing and holding nutrients. Also; seeing
> if adding it at the start or end of the tea making and seeing what occurs
> regarding time to completion and final product. What is found in compost tea
> may relate to what happens in a compost pile without all the background of
> the solid material masking effects. At least a start to determine what
> happens.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 2:18 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Frank,
>
>
>
> I can understand that carbon in different forms degrades at different rates.
> And dry AD systems are interesting.
>
>
>
> When I add char to household food scraps it makes what appears to be a
> better quality of compost. I am also aware that In the developing world
> these same scraps might be used as feed. Maybe Paul, Art, or others have had
> experience with adding TLUD char to compost from food waste, litter, or
> manure.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 1:45 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
> The C/N ratio is almost useless in when preparing compost formulations
> contrary to what most people think. The carbon is determined on a Total
> Carbon and so is nitrogen. What we really need is available C and N and the
> availability changes during the composting process. If you add wood chips to
> a compost they will be there in a large part when the compost is finished -
> so should not be counted. Oils and other lipids will biodegrade quickly
> lowering the pH. Then it's the slow release of carbon to available form as
> the process continues. With nitrogen becoming available as ammonia the pH
> goes up. It can out-gas and be lost so availability of nitrogen should also
> be a continuous process. All this occurs with in vegetative material that
> has wood chips added only for porosity.
>
>
>
> So a measure of total N and total C at the beginning has little use and is
> only a guideline. Real way is to measure the Total N and C at the beginning
> and again at the end to determine the C removed as CO2 IMO. But to answer
> your question you might as well test for Total N and total C to get a C/N
> ratio with the char along with the wood chips.
>
>
>
> As for food scraps; They are the hardest to compost unless well mixed in
> with a lot of other materials. That because they are readily available C and
> N and react fast and that causes smells and fluctuation in pH, hugh oxygen
> demands making anaerobic conditions etc. New interest is AD dry systems then
> aerobic composting remaining material that have been partial stabilized.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 1:01 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> If I am taking char from a TLUD and adding it to cooking scraps for compost
> do I ignore the carbon in the char when calculating the Carbon to Nitrogen
> ratio?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:05 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
>
>
> For compost the purpose is to 'stabilize' the carbon to a point the
> environment can replenish oxygen and nutrients at a rate plants and biota is
> not effected. When in an ag situation we have growers ready to supplement
> nutrients (nitrogen) at the ready when plants or lab tests indicate needed.
> Stabilized values I like to see is < 4 mg CO2-C / g organic matter / day.
> This dry weight. But many people use 8 mg CO2-C as a stabilized value.
>
>
>
> I think biochar is not even in the picture for nitrogen up-take or oxygen
> depletion in an ag soil because they will be so low. Perhaps over time in a
> non ag environment the carbon may deplete the nitrogen - put more likely
> just hold the nitrogen from being leached for later use.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:50 AM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Crispin, Frank,
>
>
>
> Apart from fraud, it is nice to have a general indication of how much of the
> fuel will convert to a gas before burning and how much would, in theory,
> remain as char. IN practice you oxidize part of he "fixed" carbon as well.
>
>
>
> In carbonization the volatile carbon is a useful indicator of the extent of
> carbonization. We look for volatile carbon to be less than 20% for most
> applications. That does not mean that all biochar needs to be less than 20%
> volatile carbon. Other measures of labile carbon would be helpful.
>
>
>
> For biochar applications it would be useful to know how much of the carbon
> is likely to be consumed by organisms and will thereby have a demand on
> nitrogen or other nutrients. I have assumes that is the volatile fraction.
> How much char C do you include in calculating a C:N ration for composting,
> for example? If you intend to deliver a char to a uses that will supply
> it's own N how much to you have to add? How much char from stoves can you
> estimate will have a demand on plant nutrients if used as biochar?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Crispin
> Pemberton-Pigott
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:09 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue
> 17
>
>
>
> Dear Frank
>
>
>
> My main disagreement is the term Fixed Carbon and that it means the total
> weigh DAF where it should be a measure of carbon in that fraction. I will
> need to get over that.
>
>
>
> I assure you that Fixed Carbon does not have a clear and scientific meaning.
> I have given up hope with analyses that use the term. That means, it is
> 'helpful' but not an exact measure of anything.
>
>
>
> It really is taken to mean the carbon that happens not to disappear when the
> sample is treated in a certain way. Treat it in another way and the 'fixed'
> portion changes so it is an inherent property of the protocol times the
> fuel, not a property of the fuel alone.
>
>
>
> The coal industry is so large that they feel they can get away with internal
> definitions and that makes huge problems for stovers because we never really
> know what we are being handed to burn. With biomass that has historically
> been the 'chemistry' of the fuel contents. But the principal users of 'fixed
> carbon' are the coal consumers like power stations. To give the DAF value of
> anything is misleading because we need to know what % it is of the fuel, not
> of part of the fuel.
>
>
>
> There are many tricks played by people promoting processed fuels that
> involve switching the fuel energy content numbers during the conversation.
> For example, people will report the 'as received' heat content as the fuel's
> heating value (which is true) and then point out that their 'Processing'
> increases this to a much higher 'DAF value' showing a '60% increase in
> energy per kg' even though it takes energy to remove the water and calculate
> out the ash. Plain fraud. Whenever someone reports the energy content you
> have to not only ask on what basis the figure was derived, but also
> investigate the protocol to see if it really is what it claims to be. Many
> people believe that there is free energy to be harvested in this manner.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20111031/cc554393/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:44:21 -0300
> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14,
> Issue 17
> Message-ID: <3A60302CFEF54573A2164CB5CFEC697D at usera594fda0bf>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Tom
>
> Given that biochar seems to be a good addition to manure and compost, what about purposely adding it to food scraps intended for animal feed, for the medicinal benefit that ingested charcoal may provide?
>
> 1: Is there any known detrimental effect to animals consuming charcoal?
> 2: Is there any reason to believe that animals would find charcoal fines in their food as unpalatable?
> 3: Would chickens perhaps seek out charcoal particles as a "grit substitute?"
>
> If nothing else, at least manure from animals fed charcoal would produce "pre-biocharred manure." :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Miles
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14,Issue 17
>
>
> Frank,
>
>
>
> I can understand that carbon in different forms degrades at different rates. And dry AD systems are interesting.
>
>
>
> When I add char to household food scraps it makes what appears to be a better quality of compost. I am also aware that In the developing world these same scraps might be used as feed. Maybe Paul, Art, or others have had experience with adding TLUD char to compost from food waste, litter, or manure.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 1:45 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
> The C/N ratio is almost useless in when preparing compost formulations contrary to what most people think. The carbon is determined on a Total Carbon and so is nitrogen. What we really need is available C and N and the availability changes during the composting process. If you add wood chips to a compost they will be there in a large part when the compost is finished - so should not be counted. Oils and other lipids will biodegrade quickly lowering the pH. Then it's the slow release of carbon to available form as the process continues. With nitrogen becoming available as ammonia the pH goes up. It can out-gas and be lost so availability of nitrogen should also be a continuous process. All this occurs with in vegetative material that has wood chips added only for porosity.
>
>
>
> So a measure of total N and total C at the beginning has little use and is only a guideline. Real way is to measure the Total N and C at the beginning and again at the end to determine the C removed as CO2 IMO. But to answer your question you might as well test for Total N and total C to get a C/N ratio with the char along with the wood chips.
>
>
>
> As for food scraps; They are the hardest to compost unless well mixed in with a lot of other materials. That because they are readily available C and N and react fast and that causes smells and fluctuation in pH, hugh oxygen demands making anaerobic conditions etc. New interest is AD dry systems then aerobic composting remaining material that have been partial stabilized.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 1:01 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> If I am taking char from a TLUD and adding it to cooking scraps for compost do I ignore the carbon in the char when calculating the Carbon to Nitrogen ratio?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Frank Shields
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:05 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
>
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
>
>
> For compost the purpose is to 'stabilize' the carbon to a point the environment can replenish oxygen and nutrients at a rate plants and biota is not effected. When in an ag situation we have growers ready to supplement nutrients (nitrogen) at the ready when plants or lab tests indicate needed. Stabilized values I like to see is < 4 mg CO2-C / g organic matter / day. This dry weight. But many people use 8 mg CO2-C as a stabilized value.
>
>
>
> I think biochar is not even in the picture for nitrogen up-take or oxygen depletion in an ag soil because they will be so low. Perhaps over time in a non ag environment the carbon may deplete the nitrogen - put more likely just hold the nitrogen from being leached for later use.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Tom Miles
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:50 AM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
>
>
>
> Crispin, Frank,
>
>
>
> Apart from fraud, it is nice to have a general indication of how much of the fuel will convert to a gas before burning and how much would, in theory, remain as char. IN practice you oxidize part of he "fixed" carbon as well.
>
>
>
> In carbonization the volatile carbon is a useful indicator of the extent of carbonization. We look for volatile carbon to be less than 20% for most applications. That does not mean that all biochar needs to be less than 20% volatile carbon. Other measures of labile carbon would be helpful.
>
>
>
> For biochar applications it would be useful to know how much of the carbon is likely to be consumed by organisms and will thereby have a demand on nitrogen or other nutrients. I have assumes that is the volatile fraction. How much char C do you include in calculating a C:N ration for composting, for example? If you intend to deliver a char to a uses that will supply it's own N how much to you have to add? How much char from stoves can you estimate will have a demand on plant nutrients if used as biochar?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:09 PM
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-production] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17
>
>
>
> Dear Frank
>
>
>
> My main disagreement is the term Fixed Carbon and that it means the total weigh DAF where it should be a measure of carbon in that fraction. I will need to get over that.
>
>
>
> I assure you that Fixed Carbon does not have a clear and scientific meaning. I have given up hope with analyses that use the term. That means, it is 'helpful' but not an exact measure of anything.
>
>
>
> It really is taken to mean the carbon that happens not to disappear when the sample is treated in a certain way. Treat it in another way and the 'fixed' portion changes so it is an inherent property of the protocol times the fuel, not a property of the fuel alone.
>
>
>
> The coal industry is so large that they feel they can get away with internal definitions and that makes huge problems for stovers because we never really know what we are being handed to burn. With biomass that has historically been the 'chemistry' of the fuel contents. But the principal users of 'fixed carbon' are the coal consumers like power stations. To give the DAF value of anything is misleading because we need to know what % it is of the fuel, not of part of the fuel.
>
>
>
> There are many tricks played by people promoting processed fuels that involve switching the fuel energy content numbers during the conversation. For example, people will report the 'as received' heat content as the fuel's heating value (which is true) and then point out that their 'Processing' increases this to a much higher 'DAF value' showing a '60% increase in energy per kg' even though it takes energy to remove the water and calculate out the ash. Plain fraud. Whenever someone reports the energy content you have to not only ask on what basis the figure was derived, but also investigate the protocol to see if it really is what it claims to be. Many people believe that there is free energy to be harvested in this manner.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:40:00 +0100
> From: "Paal wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] re biochar production
> Message-ID: <61FD429839DF474199832B66ECBD4F79 at firmanav10a4e1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear Dean
>
> Thank you for that and welcome to the group of TLUD-ND?rs. I think this process of yours started at the Aprovecho stove camp 2009 when the TLUD-ND Peko Pe was tested and found to be the cleanest burning stove and given the Kitten Whiz Award. We are now waiting for some more stovers to join us.
>
> It has taken me 25 years to tell the household energy world it?s time to change from charcoal to wood/biomass by using TLUD-ND stove technology. As you now have launched to the list the idea of changing, I hope we can start up that discussion; biochar should be quite good enlightened now.
>
> With regards
>
> Paal W
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:41:30 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] DUE 2012 Call for papers
> Message-ID: <01ca01cc98a4$79685180$6c38f480$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Friends
>
>
>
> If you want to submit a paper now is the time. The range of topics is
> restricted to domestic energy and that of course includes stoves.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
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>
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>
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 15, Issue 1
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