[Stoves] What poor means?

Sun Nov 20 20:18:54 CST 2011

Hi david.....or is it philibuster

Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:44:54 +0700
From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?

Phil,

It is possible to build cook stoves with doing damage to children and the environment. This question screams of pure crap, how can one fix the "carbon footprint" by exploiting children or the environment. 
I work with an organization in Vietnam dedicated to cleaner production techniques. I prefer to pay more and feed my neighbors
Your concerns here are not a problem. You need not judge my concerns as not a problem.....maybe you are just a corporate chicken hawk as well.

But I would want to collaborate with experts who do not need to make money through the sale of cook stoves.

Thanks.
Paul

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Fireside Hearth <firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com> wrote:

Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:06:42 +0700
From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?

I suggest:
that we collaborate in coming up with some of the best designs of cook stoves for particular forms of biomass;that we look for countries uniquely positioned to fabricate at the most competitive prices; While not tolerating child slave labor or environmental rape

that we use the highest quality materials in our fabrication;that we employ some of the most advanced mass production techniques; Only if there are green in all ways

that we buy in large quantities to further reduce price;

that we sell at cost, or perhaps below cost, to the poor;that we operate with total transparency in making known our fabrication costs;
that we ask the rich to voluntarily pay more to subsidize the sale to the poor.

The effort to provide good cook stoves does not have to be a money-making endeavor. Sorry, but I don't believe that there is not a way to do both. My families future depends
on making money through this. We also wish to support our failing schools with this money.

It could easily become a world-wide collaborative effort involving many people on this stove list. YES!

Thanks.
Paul Olivier

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Phil,

I think that if we factor in the ill health and climate change caused by incomplete combustion of biomass, society as a whole saves money by subsidizing the 50% fuel reduction and 90% emission reduction cooking stove. However, as Bryan Wilson points out in his presentations, the bottom of the pyramid consumer is not motivated to pay for these improvements.

My hope is that someone will be smart enough and stubborn enough to manufacture a market driven stove that meets the 50% and 90% level of performance. And, the necessary push to accomplish this difficult task would be very much assisted by a firm order for 1 million stoves from some motivated funder who also locates and secures the distribution network.

Making the 50% and 90% stove is the relatively easy part. I would guess that the commercial distribution side is 10 times harder. I can imagine distributing 100 million stoves by selling at the market price to cooks who then use the stoves and the funder makes the money back on the carbon credits. 

 I hear that Envirofit is doing something along these lines?

All Best,

Dean

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Phil Hughes <nicafyl at gmail.com> wrote:

The $2/day number can clearly mean very different things in different places. I live in rural Nicaragua and can offer some data that at least fits here. And here is a place where fuel-efficient stoves really are needed.

For those with work, $2/day is the going wage. There are lots of people who seldom work so $2/day/family in this area as far as cash income is pretty high. That said, most people have enough land to grow much of what they eat and few have any debts.

The cash gets spent on batteries for radios, cooking oil, salt, sugar, rice and minimally on clothing. That's really about it. But, having no savings and living day-to-day on what they have is typical. That is, if they had a good week they might buy batteries for the radio but, if not, just not listen to it.

Health care and education are free so they are non-issues (for pretty low quality for each). That pretty well defines rural life here.
Telling someone they can reduce fuel consumption by 50%, get rid of smoke in the house and such is not going to compute if an investment is needed. They will walk farther to cut wood for cooking and pretend the smoke is a non-issue. Thus, these people are unlikely to get excited about "something better" if an investment is needed.

What will work is if they can go to a workshop showing them how to make a stove using mud and something that is available as scrap or given to them. Beyond that, good luck.
-- 

Phil Hughes 

nicafyl at gmail.com

_______________________________________________

Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

http://www.bioenergylists.org/

_______________________________________________

Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

http://www.bioenergylists.org/

-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27C Pham Hong Thai Street
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)

Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 		 	   		  

_______________________________________________

Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address

stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:

http://www.bioenergylists.org/

-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27C Pham Hong Thai Street
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)

Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org

for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20111120/92fd6159/attachment.html>