[Stoves] What poor means?

Paul Olivier paul.olivier at esrla.com
Sun Nov 20 23:02:30 CST 2011


So sorry I mistyped.
Please replace "with" by "without".
It should read "without doing damage".
I withdraw entirely from this discussion.


On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Fireside Hearth <
firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi david.....or is it philibuster
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:44:54 +0700
>
> From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?
>
> Phil,
>
> It is possible to build cook stoves with doing damage to children and the
> environment. This question screams of pure crap, how can one fix the
> "carbon footprint" by exploiting children or the environment.
> I work with an organization in Vietnam dedicated to cleaner production
> techniques. I prefer to pay more and feed my neighbors
> Your concerns here are not a problem. You need not judge my concerns as
> not a problem.....maybe you are just a corporate chicken hawk as well.
>
> But I would want to collaborate with experts who do not need to make money
> through the sale of cook stoves.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Fireside Hearth <
> firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:06:42 +0700
> From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?
>
> I suggest:
>
>    1. that we collaborate in coming up with some of the best designs of
>    cook stoves for particular forms of biomass;
>    2. that we look for countries uniquely positioned to fabricate at the
>    most competitive prices; While not tolerating child slave labor or
>    environmental rape
>     3. that we use the highest quality materials in our fabrication;
>    4. that we employ some of the most advanced mass production techniques;Only if there are green in all ways
>    5. that we buy in large quantities to further reduce price;
>    6. that we sell at cost, or perhaps below cost, to the poor;
>    7. that we operate with total transparency in making known our
>    fabrication costs;
>    8. that we ask the rich to voluntarily pay more to subsidize the sale
>    to the poor.
>
> The effort to provide good cook stoves does not have to be a money-making
> endeavor. Sorry, but I don't believe that there is not a way to do both.
> My families future depends
> on making money through this. We also wish to support our failing schools
> with this money.
> It could easily become a world-wide collaborative effort involving many
> people on this stove list. YES!
>
>
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> I think that if we factor in the ill health and climate change caused by
> incomplete combustion of biomass, society as a whole saves money by
> subsidizing the 50% fuel reduction and 90% emission reduction cooking
> stove. However, as Bryan Wilson points out in his presentations, the bottom
> of the pyramid consumer is not motivated to pay for these improvements.
>
> My hope is that someone will be smart enough and stubborn enough to
> manufacture a market driven stove that meets the 50% and 90% level of
> performance. And, the necessary push to accomplish this difficult task
> would be very much assisted by a firm order for 1 million stoves from some
> motivated funder who also locates and secures the distribution network.
>
> Making the 50% and 90% stove is the relatively easy part. I would guess
> that the commercial distribution side is 10 times harder. I can imagine
> distributing 100 million stoves by selling at the market price to cooks who
> then use the stoves and the funder makes the money back on the carbon
> credits.
>
>  I hear that Envirofit is doing something along these lines?
>
> All Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Phil Hughes <nicafyl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The $2/day number can clearly mean very different things in different
> places. I live in rural Nicaragua and can offer some data that at least
> fits here. And here is a place where fuel-efficient stoves really are
> needed.
>
> For those with work, $2/day is the going wage. There are lots of people
> who seldom work so $2/day/family in this area as far as cash income is
> pretty high. That said, most people have enough land to grow much of what
> they eat and few have any debts.
>
> The cash gets spent on batteries for radios, cooking oil, salt, sugar,
> rice and minimally on clothing. That's really about it. But, having no
> savings and living day-to-day on what they have is typical. That is, if
> they had a good week they might buy batteries for the radio but, if not,
> just not listen to it.
>
> Health care and education are free so they are non-issues (for pretty low
> quality for each). That pretty well defines rural life here.
>
> Telling someone they can reduce fuel consumption by 50%, get rid of smoke
> in the house and such is not going to compute if an investment is needed.
> They will walk farther to cut wood for cooking and pretend the smoke is a
> non-issue. Thus, these people are unlikely to get excited about "something
> better" if an investment is needed.
>
> What will work is if they can go to a workshop showing them how to make a
> stove using mud and something that is available as scrap or given to them.
> Beyond that, good luck.
>
> --
> Phil Hughes
> nicafyl at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 27C Pham Hong Thai Street
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
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> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 27C Pham Hong Thai Street
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
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-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27C Pham Hong Thai Street
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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