[Stoves] What poor means?

Sun Nov 20 20:54:21 CST 2011

Stovers of all kinds from all types of organizations and countries can and
should collaborate and learn from each other. It is the brilliance behind
the bioenergylists.org web site.

I find it refreshing that a private enterprise would make a high quality
product that citizens of countries where energy is (too) cheap and
plentiful, then sell it at a profit that compensates him or her for the
initiative.

I am not the expert in the stove field and don't pretend to have the
experience that others on this list do.  What I do know from experience is
that Dean is right.  Making the technology is the easy part and getting a
wide, diverse, human population to change their cooking habits has a
multitude of barriers.  There is not one formula that will work across this
planet.

Even the stoves that are subsidized to make them affordable need to be able
to make a profit or the project will fail.  Making money is not a bad thing
if your product is something that can contribute to the common good.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their information on this site.  It helps
even those of us who are on the sidelines.

Bruce

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Fireside Hearth <
firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Maybe some of us can "collaborate" once we are no longer worried about
> feeding our children.............we the 99% are happy to share our
> expertise, but we also need to eat...sorry!
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:44:54 +0700
>
> From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?
>
> Phil,
>
> It is possible to build cook stoves with doing damage to children and the
> environment.
> I work with an organization in Vietnam dedicated to cleaner production
> techniques.
> Your concerns here are not a problem.
> But I would want to collaborate with experts who do not need to make money
> through the sale of cook stoves.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Fireside Hearth <
> firesidehearthvashon at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:06:42 +0700
> From: paul.olivier at esrla.com
>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] What poor means?
>
> I suggest:
>
>    1. that we collaborate in coming up with some of the best designs of
>    cook stoves for particular forms of biomass;
>    2. that we look for countries uniquely positioned to fabricate at the
>    most competitive prices; While not tolerating child slave labor or
>    environmental rape
>     3. that we use the highest quality materials in our fabrication;
>    4. that we employ some of the most advanced mass production techniques;Only if there are green in all ways
>    5. that we buy in large quantities to further reduce price;
>    6. that we sell at cost, or perhaps below cost, to the poor;
>    7. that we operate with total transparency in making known our
>    fabrication costs;
>    8. that we ask the rich to voluntarily pay more to subsidize the sale
>    to the poor.
>
> The effort to provide good cook stoves does not have to be a money-making
> endeavor. Sorry, but I don't believe that there is not a way to do both.
> My families future depends
> on making money through this. We also wish to support our failing schools
> with this money.
> It could easily become a world-wide collaborative effort involving many
> people on this stove list. YES!
>
>
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> I think that if we factor in the ill health and climate change caused by
> incomplete combustion of biomass, society as a whole saves money by
> subsidizing the 50% fuel reduction and 90% emission reduction cooking
> stove. However, as Bryan Wilson points out in his presentations, the bottom
> of the pyramid consumer is not motivated to pay for these improvements.
>
> My hope is that someone will be smart enough and stubborn enough to
> manufacture a market driven stove that meets the 50% and 90% level of
> performance. And, the necessary push to accomplish this difficult task
> would be very much assisted by a firm order for 1 million stoves from some
> motivated funder who also locates and secures the distribution network.
>
> Making the 50% and 90% stove is the relatively easy part. I would guess
> that the commercial distribution side is 10 times harder. I can imagine
> distributing 100 million stoves by selling at the market price to cooks who
> then use the stoves and the funder makes the money back on the carbon
> credits.
>
>  I hear that Envirofit is doing something along these lines?
>
> All Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Phil Hughes <nicafyl at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The $2/day number can clearly mean very different things in different
> places. I live in rural Nicaragua and can offer some data that at least
> fits here. And here is a place where fuel-efficient stoves really are
> needed.
>
> For those with work, $2/day is the going wage. There are lots of people
> who seldom work so $2/day/family in this area as far as cash income is
> pretty high. That said, most people have enough land to grow much of what
> they eat and few have any debts.
>
> The cash gets spent on batteries for radios, cooking oil, salt, sugar,
> rice and minimally on clothing. That's really about it. But, having no
> savings and living day-to-day on what they have is typical. That is, if
> they had a good week they might buy batteries for the radio but, if not,
> just not listen to it.
>
> Health care and education are free so they are non-issues (for pretty low
> quality for each). That pretty well defines rural life here.
>
> Telling someone they can reduce fuel consumption by 50%, get rid of smoke
> in the house and such is not going to compute if an investment is needed.
> They will walk farther to cut wood for cooking and pretend the smoke is a
> non-issue. Thus, these people are unlikely to get excited about "something
> better" if an investment is needed.
>
> What will work is if they can go to a workshop showing them how to make a
> stove using mud and something that is available as scrap or given to them.
> Beyond that, good luck.
>
> --
> Phil Hughes
> nicafyl at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 27C Pham Hong Thai Street
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 27C Pham Hong Thai Street
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
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