[Stoves] Combining stoves, bioliquidfuels, and Biochar - Possible for all together? India. Agave and Dryland Crops
Harry Stokes
hstokesoffice at gmail.com
Sat Aug 11 12:33:26 CDT 2012
Dear All,
Thank you for these comments.
Anil has done great work over many years with his research and development
on ethanol stoves, sorghum, distillation units and how to develop ethanol
stoves and small scale ethanol production for stoves in India and elsewhere.
Anil-how many of your stoves are being produced for the Asian market and do
you know where they are going? I am aware of another ethanol stove in
Indonesia called the Kombi stove.
We know the regulatory constraints in India, which really do have to get
resolved to open up the opportunity for small scale ethanol in India for
fuel use. Anil-have you been successful, despite the constraints, in
disseminating your stove in India?
Having a rough idea of stove dissemination numbers and locations where
ethanol stoves are being used would be most helpful. Also, knowing where
ethanol fuel is successfully getting into the market for stove fuel and how
this is being done would be equally valuable to know.
Best wishes,
Harry
hstokes at projectgaia.com
P.S. Lloyd, we continue to be very interested in Agave as a feedstock. Thank
you for the invitation to Arturo by email.
_____
From: nari phaltan [mailto:nariphaltan at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:37 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: hstokes at projectgaia.com; ARTURO VELEZ
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Combining stoves, bioliquidfuels, and Biochar -
Possible for all together?
Dear Stovers,
Just to keep the record straight, we have been working on ethanol lanterns
and stoves since 1980s. Stovers might be interested in the following
publications.
www.nariphaltan.org/ruralethanol.pdf
www.nariphaltan.org/sorghum.pdf
www.nariphaltan.org/housenergy.htm
www.nariphaltan.org/lanstove.pdf
www.nariphaltan.org/ethstove.pdf This stove is being produced on large
scale in Indonesia for sales in ASEAN countries.
Cheers.
Anil
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Lloyd Helferty <lhelferty at sympatico.ca>
wrote:
Ron,
I have also corresponded quite extensively with Mr. Harry Stokes a couple
of years ago at about the time I was supporting Nathaniel Mulcahy and his
initial Stove project work in Haiti after the earthquake.
Harry had noted at the time that 3 billion liters of hydrous ethanol are
traded through the Caribbean from Brazil every year, yet he had noted that
there are a number of major ethanol producers in Central America and the
Caribbean who are constrained to consistently under-produce because of the
want of a market.
He noted that " If these countries could produce and sell into a domestic
stove fuel market, they could again produce for a market that would justify
a robust agricultural base. With a healthy agricultural sector and the
application of best practices, they could rebuild their soils and croplands,
which now lie fallow."
(This was Harry's "Build Back Better" approach... as was being promoted by
Bill Clinton after the earthquake: a pathway to sustainability for Haiti.)
At the time I was also in conversation with Roger Samson of REAP Canada,
and I had suggested to Mr. Stokes that he might also wish to consider using
Agave was as the feedstock for producing liquid fuels (ethanol etc), which,
according to Arturo Velez, can produce 3X more sugars than sugarcane, while
thriving on drylands / "marginal land" (it thrives with only 190mm of rain
per year and can produce very high yields with very low or no inputs) and
could potentially achieve massive production due to year-around harvesting
and World-wide geographical distribution (Drylands cover about 40% of the
Earth's surface; >60 million square Km, @ ~20% of US territory and >75% of
Mexico).
[Harry had suggested Sweet sorghum instead since it is a dryland crop that
builds soil fertility very effectively. ~ I believe that he was also working
with the International Institute for Ecological Agriculture (IIEA) and
looking into other 'dryland' feedstocks such as Giant Milkweed and Prosopis
(mesquite).]
While Harry was working with a core team of developers to raise capital
for a business that would essentially mass produce small, efficient, simple
but highly engineered "micro distilleries" (for places like Haiti), I had
noted that the leftover "bagasse" from these distilleries could also be used
to make Biochar.
I had originally suggested that the enormous amounts of bagasse that
result from the production of sustainable alcohols from drylands feedstocks
could be processed in such a way as to produce other liquid fuels (bio-oils)
industrially (in systems such as those produced by companies like Agritherm,
ABRI Tech or Ensyn) -- such that massive quantities of both bio-oil and
Biochar could be produced (and sequestered)... however, if CPB could also
convert this bagasse into another type of liquid fuel (the 'N100' that could
in turn be used in engines and other types of bio-liquid fuel stoves), we
could truly achieve very substantial "carbon negativity".
Regards,
Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
www.biochar-consulting.ca
48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
905-707-8754
CELL: 647-886-8754
Skype: lloyd.helferty
Steering Committee coordinator
Canadian Biochar Initiative (CBI)
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
Partner of Toronto Urban Ag Summit! www.urbanagsummit.org
See also: http://www.facebook.com/UrbanAgSummit
Manager, Biochar Offsets Group:
http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=
<http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475> &gid=2446475
Advisory Committee Member, IBI
http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675
http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario
http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/
http://www.biocharontario.ca
www.biochar.ca
"The history of every nation is eventually written in the way it cares for
its soil."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
On 2012-08-10 5:24 PM, rongretlarson at comcast.net wrote:
List:
1. A short time ago, I sent in a brief announcement (below) about
Harry Stokes. Without committing him, I think he supports the following as
a new way to obtain and promote this list's emphasis: improved biomass
stoves for developing countries.
2. The following idea naturally follows from last week's successful
Biochar conference in Sonoma. This conference has been discussed some on
the sister Biochar lists, but not here, although there were several persons
presenting there on stoves. Presumably most stoves list members interested
in Biochar already know all about that other list - but for others, I
recommend a look at this site (save it - it doesn't pop up in Google
searches)
http://2012.biochar.us.com/299/2012-us-biochar-conference-presentations
3. For many at the conference, I think the most important new Biochar
material related to a new company, that had not presented previously at
Biochar meetings (probably because they are better known as a biofuels
company). But they advertise a fuel they call N100 - which means 100
Percent as much carbon negativity as carbon neutrality. I think the main
buzz was because they are well funded by some very big players. This and a
bit more (I recommend the 14 minute video by corporate founder Mike Cheiky)
on the company (shorthand CPB) are at:
www.coolplanetbiofuels.com
4. There was no discussion at the Sonoma meeting nor is there any
discussion at the CPB web site of using their biofuel product for our list
interest: rural biomass cookstoves. Emphasizing their bioliquids also for
stoves could be a big winner - along the lines of what Harry Stokes has been
doing. The big difference from Stokes' work is that char and carbon
negativity automatically follow with use of the CPB fuels - not possible
with any other bioliquidfuel I am aware of. I emphasize "automatic" -
the char is a left-over but can contain half the initial carbon (30% char
by weight is being stated). Surprisingly, there is very little release of
CO2 during production, and some or much is exothermic.
5. The CPB website gives plenty of reasons they can be successful -
but none related to stoves. My reasons for thinking that their's could be a
successful approach for stove use are:
a. The CPB biofuel is already being planned to be produced in
developing countries. Rather than importing fossil kerosene, LPG, propane,
etc with inevitably rising prices - the CPB fuels will be least cost at the
point of manufacture, near to the stove users. Maybe even able to use a
biofuel for cooking that is slightly substandard for engines.
b. Char-making stoves have many positive attributes (that I have
been promoting for 17 + years), but a bioliquids fuel approach can probably
always be cleaner, more adjustable (turn-down ratio), be adaptable to
multiple pots and will not be batch-limited.
c. Char-making stoves will hopefully soon be eligible for carbon
credits, but dealing with small single family or even village scale auditing
violates all we know about existing credit hurdles. A large entity (CPB or
someone they sell equipment to) will already be well equipped to work for
carbon neutral credits; adding carbon negative credits from their
co-product Biochar will be easier than for any other industry group I can
think of.
d. Cooks in developing countries are already choosing liquid fuel
stoves - when they can be afforded. There are existing supply chains for
fuel and stoves. LPG fuels are already in short supply.
e. I think it possible for the barter system that Nat Mulcahy
(WorldStoves) has developed to also work here. A wood gatherer can exchange
the raw materials for a bioliquid - and (a guess?) do less wood gathering
than at present. This time savings will be complemented by time savings
while cooking with a liquid fuel. And health issues. The same firm
supplying the CPB carbon-negative biofuel can also supply a (hopefully) low
cost (and probably pre-primed) Biochar with the same barter exchange of ag
wastes, etc.
f. Char-making stoves work best in a rural environment. But the
majority of potential users of any future carbon negative biofuel are now
living in cities - where the price competition for a carbon negative form of
cooking is easiest
g. Lastly and most important to me - I have argued strongly on
this list for a total prohibition of charcoal-using stoves because they are
so wasteful. This approach could help in policing the presently largely
illegal production of char. Since CPB will be precharging their char for ag
purposes, it would be incredibly stupid to burn that char. Char for ag use
is likely to look more different as well as just being too small for
cooking.
6. What should be the impact of the above on other stove types discussed
on this list?
a. I think this biofuels approach might help as a backup for solar
cookers. Biomass supply will always be insufficient if we get serious about
excess atmospheric carbon - so a combined solar-liquids approach could be a
least cost approach.
b. Of course, I hope a biofuel stove kills all use of fossil fuels for
cooking or heating - because of my perceived need to get quickly to 350 ppm.
My hope would be that coal use in Ulan Bataa, for instance, might prove to
be more expensive than the use of wood from northern Mongolia, since the
biofuel being moved is so energy dense, easily stored, cleaner, etc.
The use of existing propane, natural gas, kerosene, etc stoves will be
killed only if the CPB fuels are cheaper - and this seems likely eventually
if not right now (according to the CPB website).
c. I think liquid-fueled stoves are likely to prove much better in all
regards to all present wood-burning (including Rocket stoves) re cost, air
quality, efficiency, etc, if the assumptions above hold (on time spent
looking for fuel, etc). This needs more analysis.
d. Cooking using methane from biodigesters might be a close call.
Those stoves are not generating the char that I find so important, but
putting char in digesters for "conditioning" seems very promising. The main
difference could be in the perception of the time being used each way.
e. As to char-making stoves, the improvement is not so obvious for
rural cooks having plenty of wood, time, and need for char. Regardless, it
is better to have multiple options and there will be many countries or parts
of countries, that wouldn't see internal generation of a carbon negative
biofuel for a long time. A huge market therefore remains for char-making
stoves. And something may not be correct in this initial review of what
looks like a promising addition to our list topic - cooking with biomass.
7. So this is to request your reaction to pushing this different way to
promote Biochar production and use in family cooking in developing
countries. I will forward your thoughts to CPB. There could be companies
formed around this idea and I hope there are. I won't be doing so. For
me, the basic question is whether more Biochar might be put in the ground
if cooking were done with liquids made from biomass, rather than cooking
with that same biomass in any other type of stove.
Ron
_____
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: "Discussion of biomass" <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: hstokes at projectgaia.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26:24 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Award for Harry Stokes
List:
For a different reason that I will write on soon, I was searching some
(excellent) stove material on Harry's web site, and found notice of his
winning a prestigious bioenergy 2012 award. See
http://www.projectgaia.com/blog/2012/06/06/pgi-executive-director-harry-stok
es-selected-as-2012-world-bioenergy-award-winner/
I first met Harry at the (first in 2000?) stove conference in Pune,
India. Harry's specialty - almost alone - is in pushing liquid fuels
(mostly ethanol and methanol) for cooking in developing countries. He is,
of course, emphasizing those fuels from biomass rather than fossil sources.
Look at his web site for some of the projects now underway.
Congratulations to a well-deserving winner.
Ron
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--
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
P.O.Box 44
Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
Ph:91-2166-222396/220945
e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com <mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan at gmail.com>
anilrajvanshi at gmail.com
http://www.nariphaltan.org
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