[Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves

Paul Olivier paul.olivier at esrla.com
Wed Dec 5 16:36:58 CST 2012


Josh and Saastamoinen,

A terracotta vase is quite inexpensive and will resist the high temperature
of the hot biochar.
When rice hull biochar is emptied from the reactor, a good portion of it is
red hot.
It would be easy to measure the temperature of the biochar, but I have
never done this.
Josh's guess that hot biochar approaches the melting point of aluminum
appears reasonable.

Rice hulls do not allow for the easy passage of air,
 and rice hull biochar is even more resistant than rice hulls to air flow.
So rice hull biochar has excellent insulative properties.
A half hour after pouring hot biochar into a vase,
 the vase is still quite hot to the touch and must be handled with caution.

The terracotta vase that I have designed is not heavy
 and can be placed on the dining room table to keep a dish warm.

It is important that the volume of biochar match the holding capacity of
the vase.
In this way there are no large pockets of air within the vase.
In gasifiying 12 liters of rice hulls in the 150 gasifier, we are left with
about 6 liters of biochar.
So I designed the vase to hold this volume of biochar.

In gasifying coffee husks, we see little reduction in volume.
Twelve liters of coffee husks produce twelve liters of biochar.
Two terracotta vases would be needed in this case.

Thanks.
Paul


On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Josh Kearns <yeah.yeah.right.on at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I would be wary of using aluminum - it melts around 660 C and the char in
gasifier stoves can well exceed this temperature.
>
> Josh
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Frank, Crispin and all,
>>
>> For Frank's needs in testing labs in affluent countries, the suggested
methods could include the following (combining thoughts from several
contributors):
>>
>> 1.   Dry Ice   (solid CO2),   Can be weighed if the CO2 is an issue.
Worth a try, but watch out for the expansion of the gases.   (Usually
cooling involves contraction, but the dry ice will greatly expand.)
>>
>> 2.  ALUMINUM disks or squares or washers.   Ball have undesirable
thickness.   Flat will take the heat quickly.   And can be separated easily
and re-weighed if suspected char dust clinging to the objects is a quantity
of concern (unlikely).
>>
>> For testing labs without access to dry ice (distribution or financial
limitations), consider the aluminum flat objects.    These can be made
easily in any developing country.   Melting of aluminum drink-cans will do
the job.
>>
>> Also, ceramic "snuffer containers" (such as Paul Olivier's) might be
designed to receive the aluminum pieces and allow tumbling (the ceramic
will take some of the heat) and then be placed in a container with water to
further pull away the heat.    Having written this, I now add:   Why bother
with the weight and fragility of ceramics?   Just get a metal container
(aluminum could be superior) with an appropriate lid and even a know
weight.   Cooled and can be weighted inside the container.
>>
>> Paul     (in Kampala)
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 12/4/2012 6:41 PM, Frank Shields wrote:
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> I think there is a misunderstanding of my intent. The method I use in
the lab is intended for just measuring the energy at a snap shot of time
(WBT test ends)  and then dumping the char in the dumpster. What you and
others mention is another subject (quenching char for sale). The cost of
water, nitrogen, argon, CO2 and other gases are a non-issue for the small
amount we would use and we make up the cost from the clients wanting the
tests.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:57 PM
>>
>>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Cc: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields; Elisha Moore-Delate
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>>
>>
>> List and ccs
>>
>>     I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach that might solve
some of the indicated problems for extinguishing a char-making batch stove.
 This is the same that I mentioned to a smaller group a day or so ago.  The
idea would be to use a rock dust that one might want anyway for improving
the char's soil augmentation properties.  Some rock dusts are like biochar
- carbon negative (as an oxide, hydroxide, sulfate etc changes with time
over to a carbonate).
>>
>>     It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the volume of) the
rock dust placed on top of the hot char to block air flow.   If char is
eligible for carbon credits, then the combination should be worth even more
 (the exact ratio of credits needs work).
>>
>>    A white "quenching" powder might even get additional credits for
improving the albedo.
>>
>>    I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use water, nitrogen
(costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think dirt (or sand/clay, etc - as
suggested by Elisha) is also OK - as long as we weigh the amount used to
extinguish.   When one needs to measure and characterize the char, then a
"vase" technique like Paul Olivier has suggested is probably needed.  But
smothering a bed of char which something that adds value to the char sounds
easier to apply/manipulate than moving the hot char.
>>
>>    I am assisting with a project to collect data on biochar and rock
dusts (and even better their use together) in field-performance.  I'd love
to hear from anyone with such data.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>>
>> Use an aluminum plate!
>>
>>
>>
>> One problem would be the size of the char and the fact there is unburned
torrefied wood inside some char. It won’t crush easily. It is a reason the
error on the estimated heat value in the char is large.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
Of Kevin
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> What about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover with the other.
>>
>>
>>
>> If char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the bottom plate on a
paper towel soaked in water, and spray the top plate with a water mist.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Frank Shields
>>
>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>>
>>
>> I like the vase. And having a pot of water on top collecting ‘energy’ as
the WACW cools seems like a great method of measuring energy loss during
the cooling that can be added on to the values determined from a ground and
tested WACW. Wonder if that would work - Crispin?
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
Of Paul Olivier
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank,
>>
>> Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is indispensable in being able
to sell it.
>> If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer have an accurate
measurement of dry weight.
>> Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains valuable heat that could
be used in keeping food warm.
>>
>> Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the hot biochar.
>> A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from entering.
>> The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six liters of biochar.
>> This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my 150 gasifier.
>>
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields <frank at compostlab.com>
wrote:
>>
>> Hi Crispin,
>>
>> Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and dry weight after
>> soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is not a convenient
>> procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to error - but only
method I
>> can think of at the moment.
>> Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So wondering if there is
>> another method that could be used? Combination nitrogen gas and pieces of
>> steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> Frank Shields
>> Control Laboratories, Inc.
>> 42 Hangar Way
>> Watsonville, CA  95076
>> (831) 724-5422 tel
>> (831) 724-3188 fax
>> www.biocharlab.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
Of
>> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM
>> To: Stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
>> Dear Frank
>>
>> You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed energy for the wood
and
>> char is a major source of imprecision in the test.
>>
>> As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need to know the residual
>> moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That varies a lot depending on
>> the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an alternative.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39
>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
>>
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>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 27/2 Phu Dong Tieng Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Josh Kearns
> PhD Candidate
> Environmental Engineering
> Engineering for Developing Communities
> University of Colorado-Boulder
>
> Director of Science
> Aqueous Solutions
> www.aqsolutions.org
>
> Mobile: 720 989 3959
> Skype: joshkearns
>
>
>
>
>
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>



--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27/2 Phu Dong Tieng Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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