[Stoves] interesting link

Kevin kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Sun Jun 24 10:08:39 CDT 2012


Dear Steven

It is sad indeed that the urban poor of India can only afford $1.35 for a "new and efficient healthy stove". It is indeed good and noble of you and others who want to implement stove projects to enable have such "efficient and healthy" stoves available and affordable to the urban poor..

Consider the situation where you could offer such a stove for $2.00 and there was a "Carbon Credit Payment" of $.65 per stove available. Your project would thus succeed. However, in this case, if Carbon Credit Payments were not available, then your project is doomed to failure. Sadly, the cruel fact is that it doesn't matter what you or I believe about the future availability of Carbon Credits... what is important is whether or not they will actually be available. Unless you can get a "rock solid confirmation" that Carbon Credits will be available for your possible stove systems, any stove project depending on Carbon Credits for success is in danger of failure.

Can you get any guarantee that Carbon Credits will be available for your stoves? Can you get any indication of how much per stove these credits would be? Will carbon credit payments per stove enable you to offer the adequately improved stove for $1.35?

Best wishes,

Kevin Chisholm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steven Wilson 
  To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org 
  Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:18 AM
  Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link


  Hi all,
   
  Of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether anthropogenic climate change is a reality. And if you don't believe it is then certainly supporting any carbon offset scheme would be a scandal for your conscience. However many of us (including myself) are of the firm view that it is a reality. And that being the case I believe carbon offsets can be a legitimate and helpful tool if done properly. 
   
  I am trying to implement a stove project among the urban poor in the slums of India. Our community surveys have indicated that people would love the opportunity to cook smoke-free, however on average the survey respondents reported only being able to afford Rs 75 ($1.35) for a new stove. It's all very well to say "just make good products that people want to buy", but decent improved cookstoves are financially well out of the reach of many who could benefit from them. Through carbon offsets there is however the potential to bring them within reach. So we are looking to sell carbon offsets to individuals in the voluntary carbon offset market to fund the stoves, thereby making a project in the slums viable.
   
  Sure, some carbon offset schemes may be poorly designed and have negative consequences - they need to be prevented. But surely the whole concept should not receive the condemnation only some projects deserve.
   
  Regards,
  Steve Wilson

   

  > From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
  > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
  > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:00:38 -0700
  > 
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  > Today's Topics:
  > 
  > 1. interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
  > 2. Re: interesting link (Ron Larson)
  > 3. Re: interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier)
  > 4. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
  > 5. Re: interesting link (Andrew C. Parker)
  > 6. Re: interesting link (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
  > 7. Re: interesting link (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
  > 
  > 
  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 1
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:07:37 +0200
  > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
  > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID: <4FE58759.2080206 at web.de>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
  > 
  > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 2
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:58:23 -0600
  > From: Ron Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
  > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID: <DDD65262-6712-4F32-A765-0AC2F7F550A8 at comcast.net>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
  > 
  > Ronald and list:
  > 
  > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has to stoves?
  > 
  > Ron
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote:
  > 
  > > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook 
  > > 
  > > _______________________________________________
  > > Stoves mailing list
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  > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
  > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
  > > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 3
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:17:21 +0200
  > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de>
  > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID: <4FE5EC11.1040701 at web.de>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
  > 
  > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson,
  > 
  > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get 
  > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than 
  > carbon credits.
  > :D
  > 
  > regards,
  > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote:
  > > Ronald and list:
  > >
  > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has to stoves?
  > >
  > > Ron
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote:
  > >
  > >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook
  > >>
  > >> _______________________________________________
  > >> Stoves mailing list
  > >>
  > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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  > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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  > >>
  > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
  > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
  > >>
  > > _______________________________________________
  > > Stoves mailing list
  > >
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  > >
  > > -----
  > > No virus found in this message.
  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: 06/22/12
  > >
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 4
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC)
  > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
  > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID:
  > <1238849211.1464511.1340471118290.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
  > 
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
  > 
  > Ronald 
  > 
  > Yours is a worthy goal, but you've picked the wrong cite. ClimateDepot is well known as a place which thinks energy efficiency is for wimps. Of course they obviously know everything there is to be known about cost efficiency. 
  > 
  > Still hope you can find a reference that mentions stoves. 
  > 
  > Ron Larson (aka von oberhalbdemSmogaufDenver) 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <rwhongser at web.de> 
  > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
  > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:17:21 AM 
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link 
  > 
  > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson, 
  > 
  > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get 
  > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than 
  > carbon credits. 
  > :D 
  > 
  > regards, 
  > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote: 
  > > Ronald and list: 
  > > 
  > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has to stoves? 
  > > 
  > > Ron 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <rwhongser at web.de> wrote: 
  > > 
  > >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook 
  > >> 
  > >> _______________________________________________ 
  > >> Stoves mailing list 
  > >> 
  > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 
  > >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org 
  > >> 
  > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page 
  > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org 
  > >> 
  > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 
  > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 
  > >> 
  > > _______________________________________________ 
  > > Stoves mailing list 
  > > 
  > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 
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  > > 
  > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 
  > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > ----- 
  > > No virus found in this message. 
  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: 06/22/12 
  > > 
  > > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > _______________________________________________ 
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  > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 
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  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 5
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:35:47 -0600
  > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
  > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID: <op.wgc9txbauoov7l at user-8ezctxe031>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
  > delsp=yes
  > 
  > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health 
  > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be 
  > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits 
  > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared 
  > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of 
  > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
  > 
  > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek to 
  > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, 
  > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad 
  > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000 
  > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
  > 
  > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
  > 
  > 
  > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
  > 
  > 
  > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for 
  > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 6
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:46:45 -0400
  > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
  > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID: <011901cd5170$8aef7bb0$a0ce7310$@gmail.com>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  > 
  > Dear Andrew P
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > I appreciate all three sites you mentioned precisely because of the math!
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > To my surprise there was on the CBC (a relentlessly Warmist channel) an
  > interview today with a lady who was very well informed on the miseries to
  > which the dispossessed poor are victims of the new green-grab, they called
  > it, where the carbon cowboys roll into town to 'save the forests' and make
  > megabucks in the process.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > There was a discussion on WUWT of the stoves programmes, mostly GACC,
  > attacking the EPA for touting ridiculous plans. I engaged some of the
  > bloggers pointing out the pretty serious errors in logic (that fuel contains
  > 'inherent emissions' of PM and all that nonsense) pointing out the
  > remarkable success achieved in only 1 year in Ulaanbaatar using an open
  > mind, knowledge of good combustion and a real time test protocol (HTP). With
  > emissions down more than 99% (which I assume LBLN's Henrick Wallman will
  > talk about in his upcoming webinar) there was a pretty solid rebuttal of the
  > knee-jerk comments that stoves are all smoky and messy and need to be
  > replaced by good, clean propane.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > More to the correct topic: the pillaging of the standing forests is a new
  > type of colonialism where 'green activists' appropriate all local rights of
  > use so they can make money selling offsets to the West. What makes it so
  > galling is the defectiveness of the foundational argument - that human cause
  > CO2 emissions are dramatically (or even detectably) warming the planet - and
  > the bull-headed resistance to the mounting evidence that the educated guess
  > taken 25 years ago by Hansen et al was wrong.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > My advice remains the same: do not put money into a stove programme that
  > depends on carbon trading for survival. Just make good products that people
  > want to buy. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Regards
  > 
  > Crispin
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > +++++
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health
  > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be cleared
  > to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits farce. The
  > people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared and forced into
  > refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of
  > 
  > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek to
  > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death,
  > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad
  > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000
  > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Andrew Parker (not AJH)
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for math
  > heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine).
  > 
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  > 
  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > Message: 7
  > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:54:29 +0000 (UTC)
  > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
  > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
  > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Andrew C. Parker"
  > <acparker at xmission.com>
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link
  > Message-ID:
  > <1118696453.1467520.1340477669618.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
  > 
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
  > 
  > Andrew Parker and list : 
  > 
  > As in my last reply to Ronald H, I don't see that you are providing links that will help lead to better stoves. Lists like the three in your "P.S." have zero interest in what this list is about - and in fact I believe all three are doing a good job of making sure we are unsuccessful in bringing about better stoves. 
  > 
  > Your motivation (first sentence) for getting into this topic is much like many on the list. I started personally with concern about the desertification disaster happening in Sudan - all because of charcoal production in that country's boondocks. Charcoal-making stoves can help a lot with desertification/deforestation, even if the char is used by others for cooking - because most present char production is so horrible. 
  > 
  > But many of us on this list have come to see the char as being better for everyone if placed in the ground. Carbon credits will be helpful in that regard. If done appropriately, they can also do a lot to prevent (not encourage) what you rightfully deplore. The issue for this list should be on any/every approach that will give developing country stove users better stoves. With charcoal-making stoves, stove users can even make money while cooking, while meeting your two concerns: saving forests and gaining better health. 
  > 
  > These topics, which seem important to you, should be on the table at Rio + 20 - and I can't see that they are. Because, in part, of the three sites listed below in your "P.S." 
  > 
  > Ron 
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com> 
  > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
  > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:35:47 AM 
  > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link 
  > 
  > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health 
  > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be 
  > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits 
  > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared 
  > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of 
  > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? 
  > 
  > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek to 
  > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, 
  > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad 
  > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000 
  > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? 
  > 
  > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. 
  > 
  > 
  > Andrew Parker (not AJH) 
  > 
  > 
  > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for 
  > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). 
  > 
  > _______________________________________________ 
  > Stoves mailing list 
  > 
  > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 
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  > 
  > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page 
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  > 
  > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: 
  > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ 
  > 
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  > ------------------------------
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
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  > 
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  > 
  > 
  > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
  > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
  > 
  > 
  > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27
  > **************************************



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