[Stoves] radiant heat capture, total heat measurement

Tue Mar 13 15:04:26 CDT 2012

Andrew,

I am sorry: I do not understand what you have written below.

Yesterday I bought a thermocouple that can measure up to 1,000 C.
This morning I will use it to measure temperature with and without the dome.
Both measurements will be taken at the same height above the burner (the
height of the pot).

Any suggestions?

Paul

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:

> Dear Andrew
>
> I think your very last comment is very important, and that its importance
> is being overlooked.
>
> "Yes the glowing dome will radiate more power than the blue flame."
>
> A "blue flame" has very poor flame radiation characteristics. A yellow or
> red flame has very superior flame radiation characteristics. "Flame
> Luminosity" basically equals better radiation characteristics.
>
> One way to look at it is that "Blue Flames are too smart by half." :-)
> There is a gain in completeness of combustion, and probably higher
> temperature for "products of combustion", and reduced sooting of pots, BUT
> there is a significant loss in luminosity, and heat transfer to the pot by
> radiation. The Mesh Dome, heated by direct convection of the "blue flame"
> then is in a position to add a "radiation contribution" to heat transfer
> capability.
>
> It would be a very interesting experiment to take a "flame temperature" of
> Paul Oliver's system, with, and without the dome. My guess is that the
> "flame temperature" of the "Blue Flame", and the gases leaving the dome
> would be similar, and relatively low, even though the actual thermocouple
> measured temperature of the gases would be high. In very simplistic terms
> (for illustrative purposes only)
> 1: Blue Flame temperature by radiation measurement: 1000
> 2: Gas temperature above dome (radiation)                1000
> 3: Thermometer temperature of both gases                 1500
> 4: Flame Emissivity of 1: and 2:                                    .2
> 5: Flame emissivity for luminous flame:                         .8
>
> Thus, if some of the pyrolysis gases were diverted away from the "blue
> flame conditions", and were allowed to increase the flame luminosity, there
> could potentially be an opportunity to "have your cake and eat it." More
> specifically, the addition of some "luminous fractions" to the flame could,
> for example increase flame luminosity to say .6. but with a drop in actual
> gas temperature to say 1300 because of incompleteness of combustion.
>
> In other words, "Heat Transfer capability to the Pot" would be:
> 1: Blue flame: 1500 x .2 = 300
> 2: Blue + Yellow" flame conditions = 1300 x .6 = 780
>
> For a "Blue Flame + Radiation Dome, conditions might be
> 1300 x .4 = 510
>
> (NOTE: All these numbers are arbitrary and  purely illustrative, to
> explain the concepts)
>
> So.... if the concepts are correct, then it would seem that the best way
> to make a stove would be to make one with a burner that produced BOTH
> yellow flame(for luminosity) and a blue flame (for completeness of
> combustion).
>
> Does that "hang together for you?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.**
> org <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 6:58 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] radiant heat capture, total heat measurement
>
>
>  On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:18:14 +0700, Paul Olivier wrote:
>>
>>  More primary air means more gas.
>>>
>>
>> Yes
>>
>>  It does not necessarily mean more excess or secondary air.
>>>
>>
>> No but it the  primary gas stream acts as an ejector or aspirator to
>> entrain the secondary air.
>>
>>  My simple understanding of what is happening here is that
>>> wind does not disturb what is happening within the dome.
>>>
>>
>> I think so too.
>>
>>  Wind does not dissipate heat so easily.
>>>
>>
>> I cannot see this once outside the dome.
>>
>>  This gives a better transfer of convective heat,
>>>
>>
>> Nor this.
>>
>> The only single thing that increases the transfer to the pot from the
>> rising gases is if they are at a higher temperature.
>>
>>  and it also gives more thermal radiation.
>>>
>>
>> Yes the glowing dome will radiate more power than the blue flame.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>>
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-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27C Pham Hong Thai Street
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
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