[Stoves] fuelwood costs in Bangladesh
Steven Wilson
swilson61 at hotmail.com
Sun Sep 2 22:23:43 CDT 2012
Crispin, How it works in my region of Kolkata is; - Small chunks of wastewood from carpentry shops and wastewood from recycled door / window frames go for Rs. 5 - 6 / kg. This is considered the best for firewood as it's generally the driest. These are great for TLUDs, however some of the recycled wood has paint on it. Not quite sure of the health impacts of the paint fumes. Anyone have any input on the implications of using wood with some paint on it?- Stickwood from trees felled (with the main wood going to carpentry shops) generally go for Rs. 5 / kg, but if people buy in bulk (say 100 kg at a time), they can get a discount.- Slightly larger wood pieces go for up to Rs. 7 / kg. This is mainly because these also have value to the carpenters.- Wood shavings are provided free by the carpentry shops. People just go and fill up their sack from the carpentry shops and use the shavings as a starter fuel for traditional wood, coal or charcoal stoves.- Nothing is currently done with sawdust. Also, other biomass sold in the the area is; - Cut up and dried green coconut shells (used as a starter fuel for coal and charcoal stoves) go for Rs. 25 - 30 per sack, which works out at about Rs. 3.5 - 4.5 / kg. These can work really well in a TLUD, but the challenge is getting them dry enough. Usually when sold they're still a little too moist (especially in monsoon season when drying fuel is more difficult).- Cow dung cakes (also used as a starter fuel for coal and charcoal stoves). These are pretty cheap, but not sure of exact cost off hand. Steve
> From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 25, Issue 2
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:08:27 -0700
>
> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (Andrew C. Parker)
> 2. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (Erin Rasmussen)
> 3. Re: fuelwood costs in Bangladesh (Steven Wilson)
> 4. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (ajheggie at gmail.com)
> 5. Re powering a TLUD (Paal Wendelbo)
> 6. Re: Re powering a TLUD (Steve Taylor)
> 7. Re: Re powering a TLUD (ajheggie at gmail.com)
> 8. Re: fuelwood costs in Bangladesh (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:19:58 -0600
> From: "Andrew C. Parker" <acparker at xmission.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> Message-ID: <op.wjy1bkl7uoov7l at user-8ezctxe031>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> In a discussion of Martin Boll's Malot-blower, in July 2007, I proposed
> the use of a bellows.
> (<http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves_listserv.repp.org/2007-July/006856.html>
> Review the whole thread, Martin's idea is worth a re-read. Jeff Davis did
> some follow-up development on the idea.) Coincidentally, that next day I
> observed a model of an organ bellows, a single hand bellows feeding into
> an intermediate bellows with a weight on top which provided a steady flow
> into the organ. I am sure you could treat the inner-tube in a similar
> way, blowing it up with a bellows, or even by mouth. Would applying a
> weight provide more consistent pressure?
>
> Calling a tank of compressed air an 'air battery' seems to make it more
> acceptable to the electronic gizmo crowd.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_battery>
>
>
> Andrew Parker (Not AJH)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 16:46:27 -0700
> From: "Erin Rasmussen" <erin at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> Message-ID: <000001cd889c$014ad6d0$03e08470$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Martin Boll and Jeff Davis posted pictures that went along with the original
> discussion.
> The new stories with better copies of some of the pictures are given here.
>
> Malot Blower
> http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/node/3125
>
> Malot-Blower with Triangle-Shaft
> http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/trianglemalot
>
> Malot Blower Shaft Thickness Spreadsheet
> http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/node/1767
>
> Four Blade Malot Blower
> http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/node/3124
>
>
> Thanks Andrew C. Parker, for giving me a chance to find the pictures to
> share with you in a timely manner.
>
> cheers,
> Erin Rasmussen
>
> TR Miles Technical Consultants Inc. http://www.trmiles.com/
> and BioEnergy Discussion Lists http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> erin at trmiles.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Andrew C.
> Parker
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 12:20 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
>
> In a discussion of Martin Boll's Malot-blower, in July 2007, I proposed the
> use of a bellows.
> (<http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves_listserv.repp.org/2007-July/0068
> 56.html>
> Review the whole thread, Martin's idea is worth a re-read. Jeff Davis did
> some follow-up development on the idea.) Coincidentally, that next day I
> observed a model of an organ bellows, a single hand bellows feeding into an
> intermediate bellows with a weight on top which provided a steady flow into
> the organ. I am sure you could treat the inner-tube in a similar way,
> blowing it up with a bellows, or even by mouth. Would applying a weight
> provide more consistent pressure?
>
> Calling a tank of compressed air an 'air battery' seems to make it more
> acceptable to the electronic gizmo crowd.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_battery>
>
>
> Andrew Parker (Not AJH)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 21:13:09 +1000
> From: Steven Wilson <swilson61 at hotmail.com>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] fuelwood costs in Bangladesh
> Message-ID: <SNT143-W644951367FACF8331A46B1BBA40 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> I'm not sure what the fuel wood cost is in the cities of Bangladesh, but if this is at all helpful to you, in Kolkata (where I'm working - not too far across the India/Bangladesh border) fuel wood is sold for INR 5 - 7 / kg, depending on the wood type (wastewood from carpentry shops / recycled door frames etc / sticks from trees felled in the region).
> > From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:01:55 -0700
> >
> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Plastic-powered plane to fly from Sydney to London
> > (Carefreeland at aol.com)
> > 2. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (ajheggie at gmail.com)
> > 3. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> > 4. Re: Kampala briquetting (Nolbert Muhumuza)
> > 5. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> > 6. fuelwood costs in Bangladesh (Donee Alexander)
> > 7. Re: Powering a TLUD Fan (Phil Hughes)
> > 8. Public Comment Period: Measuring Global Alliance progress
> > (Ranyee Chiang)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:40:03 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Carefreeland at aol.com
> > To: xavier at praktidesign.com, stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org,
> > gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Plastic-powered plane to fly from Sydney to
> > London
> > Message-ID: <2fd15.53208db5.3d72cf83 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/30/2012 3:45:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > xvr.brandao at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > DD: Dan Dimiduk replies
> >
> > DD: Stovers, and Gasification people,
> >
> > This topic is better suited for the gasification list if someone wants to
> > forward it to that. I tried to do it but it may bounce.
> > My first thoughts on this subject of plastic to fuel, go to the huge mass
> > of floating plastic out in the Pacific Ocean. I wish someone would finance
> > building a large floating platform on some old ocean going barges and
> > construct a refinery. The raw material is free in international waters and
> > probably would cost less than pumping, shipping and then refining conventional
> > crude oil. The finished synthetic petroleum distillate products can be
> > shipped and sold at a premium to any developed island nearby,
> > The reserve of raw plastic in the Pacific Ocean would even be a
> > renewable resource as more plastic is constantly being dumped and washed into the
> > pacific basin. This would even be a great project for one of the major oil
> > companies to invest in. Probably among the largest untapped oil reserves
> > in the world, Centrally located to pacific rim markets. The only place you
> > can produce oil and clean up the planet in a big way at the same time.
> > Comments?
> >
> > Dan Dimiduk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I sent a message without text, here is the link:
> > _http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2200029/plasticpowered-plane-to-fly-fr
> > om-london-to-sydney?wt.mc_ev=click&WT.tsrc=Email&utm_term=&utm_content=Plast
> > ic-powered%20plane%20to%20fly%20from%20Sydney%20to%20London&utm_campaign=Bus
> > inessGreen%20Weekly%20Newsletter%20220812&utm_source=Business%20Green%20Week
> > ly&utm_medium=Email_
> > (http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2200029/plasticpowered-plane-to-fly-from-london-to-sydney?wt.mc_ev=click&WT.tsrc=Email&utm_te
> > rm=&utm_content=Plastic-powered%20plane%20to%20fly%20from%20Sydney%20to%20Lo
> > ndon&utm_campaign=BusinessGreen%20Weekly%20Newsletter%20220812&utm_source=Bu
> > siness%20Green%20Weekly&utm_medium=Email)
> > Incredible, cannot help but think about the DeLorean from the movie Back
> > to the Future, powered by waste.
> > One day, we also might have stoves running on plastic. Oh wait, it already
> > exists :)
> > --
> > Xavier Brandao
> > Prakti Design Lab
> > _www.PraktiDesign.com_ (http://www.praktidesign.com/)
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120831/d23a66af/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:28:24 +0100
> > From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> > Message-ID: <jqt348tmk8okbvuh1jf7n16d7sj5mlhrum at 4ax.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:54:18 +0700, Paul Olivier wrote:
> >
> > >The second is the pressure resistance of the fan (40x40x28mm).
> > >For a gasifier of a 150 mm diameter, the pressure resistance has to be at
> > >least 0.87 InAq.
> >
> > InAq being inches of water gauge above atmospheric? If so this is
> > about 250 Pascal, so 1 kg of dry biomass burned per hour at
> > stoichiometric air for complete gasification should be around 1m3 of
> > air, the 5m3 of air needed for secondary combustion would not need to
> > pass through the bed and as Crispin has said the offgas can entrain
> > the secondary air, though this is work it probably isn't much compared
> > with the resistance of the fuel bed. Rice husks have a high ash
> > content so I'm guessing its the ash that is serving to increase
> > resistance by blocking pores between the husks.
> >
> > Does the same happen with other fuels previously mentioned?
> >
> > 1m3 of cold air per hour is about 1/3 of a litre per second. As power
> > is force time distance and pressure and volume have terms for distance
> > that cancel out then power is pressure time volume per second in SI
> > units.
> >
> > 250 Pascal times 0.0003 seems to be 0.075W so there seems to be a fair
> > loss of conversion efficiency in the system somewhere, fans should be
> > about 70% efficient but as things get small they tend to get more
> > lossy. Or are my calculations wrong?
> >
> > Axial fans are particularly good at thrashing air into heat with no
> > useful work as they stall, they are good at moving large volumes with
> > little drop in pressure across them, laptop fans seem to be better as
> > they tend to be centrifugal ones that push air along narrow ducts.
> >
> > AJH
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:17:19 -0400
> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> > Message-ID: <0de301cd8854$eb2c45b0$c184d110$@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Dear Andrew
> >
> > First I am impressed with your power calculation and second, I agree with
> > your conclusion.
> >
> > >Axial fans are particularly good at thrashing air into heat with no useful
> > work as they stall, they are good at moving large volumes with little drop
> > in pressure across them, laptop fans seem to be better as they tend to be
> > centrifugal ones that push air along narrow ducts.
> >
> > Where the flow resistance is worth checking out. As Paul Anderson has been
> > suggesting for some time, the flow resistance can be reduced by putting a
> > screen of sorts under the whole fuel bed because the flow resistance may be
> > where the air enters the space under the fuel.
> >
> > Having been wrong several times about how much flow resistance there would
> > be offered be consolidation ash, I think it may not be the ash. It is
> > surprising how much air will move through ash.
> >
> > I offer in support three things: downdraft coal ash, John Davies' coal
> > stove, and the structure of rice hull that may rather keep gaps open. The
> > downdraft stove known as BLDD6 and (5 actually) depends on air getting
> > through the coal ash even though it is stacked quite thickly in the
> > combustion chamber. I was surprised how much air can easily pass through
> > unhindered.
> >
> > John Davies has quite a tall pile of small coal that is top lit, then after
> > reaching the bottom, the coke burns upwards with the ash underneath. All the
> > primary air has to pass through the ash to reach the coke and it works quite
> > well. In this case the unburned coke is sitting on top, compressing the ash
> > at that critical time.
> >
> > The third is that of rice hull which as you point out, has a lot of silica
> > structure to it. This should prop open airways better than coal ash. For
> > these reasons I think the resistance is either where the air enters the fuel
> > store (later, the combustion chamber) or the exit which seem less likely.
> >
> > In contra to the last point, the pressure requirement rises with time. If it
> > is an ait entry point issue, there should be a sudden rise in the need for
> > air pressure as the fuel over that point is pyrolysed. If the stove was
> > operated on a sale, the relatively sudden change in the mass loss rate
> > (which is the burn rate) would indicate the point during the burn that the
> > air is choked (just plot the mass on a chart and look for a change in
> > slope).
> >
> > There should be a distinct deflection of that line when the burn goes from
> > pyrolysing to char burning. An excellent example of this is what is now the
> > Oorja Stove from India. The change in the mass burn rate is so clearly
> > visible that it is possible to assign a different heat content per g burned
> > for each phase to get a very accurate thermal efficiency number.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:33:53 +0300
> > From: Nolbert Muhumuza <muhumuza at gmail.com>
> > To: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> > Cc: Xavier Brandao <xvr.brandao at gmail.com>, xavier at praktidesign.com,
> > Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Kampala briquetting
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAOhP5jw8-L+pcoep5qnkjL1mUs88Zi2GQz8EWzwN-cTH_=67pg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Dear Stanely,
> >
> > Paul is back in the US. My name is Nolbert Muhumuza i am partner/ associate
> > for Paul in Uganda.
> >
> > I will contact Bosco in the coming week to see if he can visit our site in
> > Makerere Kikoni where we are also making briquettes for TLUD stoves under
> > the Rotary Community Corps program.
> >
> > Nolbert.
> >
> >
> > 2012/8/31 Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> >
> > > Dear Paul ssebo,
> > >
> > > Since you are in Kampala, why not call up a few trained briquetters
> > > starting with the UWESO organization right there in Nagaseru hill (the one
> > > containing the fancy hotels and conference center and bordering the main
> > > business district.
> > >
> > > Since we (= ourselves, Kenyan and other Ugandan trainers) trained them in
> > > 2007, there are now about 1000 producers operating nation wide.
> > > UWESO (at least eh briquetting component is headed by a one Bosco
> > > Epila, Ag.Programme Director & Socio-Economic Programme Manager
> > > Epila Bosco <bepila at uweso.org>
> > >
> > > UWESO Offices:
> > > 2Tagore Crescent-Kamwokya-Kampala
> > > P.O.BOX 8419 Kampala (Uganda)
> > > Tel 0392-777448 Mob +256 772 537 642
> > >
> > > Skype: epila.bosco
> > > uweso at uweso.org
> > > Website:www.uweso.org
> > >
> > > When you actually manage to get ahold of him please tell him to contact me
> > > as he is missing !
> > > Tulabagane,
> > >
> > > Richard Stanley
> > > www.legacyfound.org
> > > Ashland Oregon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> > >
> > > Xavier and all,
> > >
> > > The usage as airplane fuel does not interest me, but the gathering of
> > > plastic and making it into something usable as a fuel is very interesting.
> > >
> > > I am involved with a project in Kampala, Uganda with neighborhood cleanup
> > > and making briquettes. But we do not have a use for the plastic which is
> > > all over the place.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have info about perhaps "melting" the plastic into blocks, or
> > > some other way to utilize the plastic?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 8/30/2012 2:38 PM, Xavier Brandao wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry, I sent a message without text, here is the link:****
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2200029/plasticpowered-plane-to-fly-from-london-to-sydney?wt.mc_ev=click&WT.tsrc=Email&utm_term=&utm_content=Plastic-powered%20plane%20to%20fly%20from%20Sydney%20to%20London&utm_campaign=BusinessGreen%20Weekly%20Newsletter%20220812&utm_source=Business%20Green%20Weekly&utm_medium=Email
> > > ****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > Incredible, cannot help but think about the DeLorean from the movie Back
> > > to the Future, powered by waste.****
> > >
> > > One day, we also might have stoves running on plastic. Oh wait, it already
> > > exists :)****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > --****
> > >
> > > Xavier Brandao****
> > >
> > > Prakti Design Lab****
> > >
> > > www.PraktiDesign.com****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > > === Prakti Design Videos (3 min) ===****
> > >
> > > Prakti Overview <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv-nuwbyUBU>****
> > >
> > > ============================****
> > >
> > > ** **
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email addressstoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nolbert Muhumuza
> > P.O. Box 40127, Nakawa
> > Kampala-Uganda
> > Mobile: +256-776-346724
> > Skype: nolbertm
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120831/1e110327/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 16:55:43 +0000 (UTC)
> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Andrew Heggie <ajheggie at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> > Message-ID:
> > <40519107.1104504.1346518543526.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Andrew and list:
> >
> > This is to ask for your thoughts on a different approach to air control than a fan (with or without a battery). That is to use a (pre-pumped) air storage "bladder" .
> > My rationale for this query includes:
> > 1. energy storage via air (CAES) has quite a few proponents. Large vehicles have operated on air storage (where electricity was a hazard) and there are companies building cars based on air storage..
> > 2. compressed air supply is common in many places - as air-motors are lighter weight and cheaper than electric.
> > 3. What is needed in TLUDs is controllable primary air - not electricity. In Josh Kearn's bicycle-flywheel-fan proposal, one can compress air perhaps as easily as putting energy into a flywheel (using inner tubes or similar) and then conversion to a fan/blower. That is - one is storing exactly what you want to supply - no energy conversions needed.
> > 4. I think there are controllable constant volume-flow valves - that would also allow controlling power levels (turn down ratios).
> > 5. Your use below of the term 1 cubic meter per 1 kg biomass sounds potentially doable with moderate size "bladders". I have no idea how many atmospheres of pressure is reasonable, nor what material (if any) might be appropriate with simple TLUDs. The issue only is whether air storage might be cheaper than other approaches. As Crispin pointed out, the low pressure above the fuel supply reduces the needed pressure (but not the amount of needed air).
> > 6. The fact that the air will be heated going into the "bladder" and cooled coming out might not be a problem is the air is preheated by flowing downward through an outer air-tight "jacket" surrounding the fuel chamber.
> > 7. My gut feeling is that this will only work economically if a second use can be found for the "bladder". Solar plus rechargeable batteries can be pretty cheap when you are also getting lighting, radio, cell-phone-recharging, etc.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:28:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:54:18 +0700, Paul Olivier wrote:
> >
> > >The second is the pressure resistance of the fan (40x40x28mm).
> > >For a gasifier of a 150 mm diameter, the pressure resistance has to be at
> > >least 0.87 InAq.
> >
> > InAq being inches of water gauge above atmospheric? If so this is
> > about 250 Pascal, so 1 kg of dry biomass burned per hour at
> > stoichiometric air for complete gasification should be around 1m3 of
> > air, the 5m3 of air needed for secondary combustion would not need to
> > pass through the bed and as Crispin has said the offgas can entrain
> > the secondary air, though this is work it probably isn't much compared
> > with the resistance of the fuel bed. Rice husks have a high ash
> > content so I'm guessing its the ash that is serving to increase
> > resistance by blocking pores between the husks.
> >
> > Does the same happen with other fuels previously mentioned?
> >
> > 1m3 of cold air per hour is about 1/3 of a litre per second. As power
> > is force time distance and pressure and volume have terms for distance
> > that cancel out then power is pressure time volume per second in SI
> > units.
> >
> > 250 Pascal times 0.0003 seems to be 0.075W so there seems to be a fair
> > loss of conversion efficiency in the system somewhere, fans should be
> > about 70% efficient but as things get small they tend to get more
> > lossy. Or are my calculations wrong?
> >
> > Axial fans are particularly good at thrashing air into heat with no
> > useful work as they stall, they are good at moving large volumes with
> > little drop in pressure across them, laptop fans seem to be better as
> > they tend to be centrifugal ones that push air along narrow ducts.
> >
> > AJH
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:56:50 -0500
> > From: Donee Alexander <doneealexander at gmail.com>
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: [Stoves] fuelwood costs in Bangladesh
> > Message-ID:
> > <CANGqBiQVZnzyKGsU7ha34B736ir3WSrASO7Yu+7Wq6Ds1bnOnw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hi Stovers,
> >
> > I'm doing some research on cookstoves in Bangladesh, and I'm trying to
> > estimate how much people in the cities pay for wood. Does anyone have any
> > idea what this may be?
> >
> > Thank you!
> > donee alexander
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:13:14 -0600
> > From: Phil Hughes <nicafyl at gmail.com>
> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAAu-d+=P0-MZ_icNtcx0x_2ABHzZZfH9=UZkwPdPnKVbc6kyPA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I think this is a great suggestion. As much as I like electronic solutions
> > (because that is what I am good at) I can see some serious advantages here.
> > First, no batteries, electronics, ... is going to make it a lot easier to
> > keep systems operating. While electronics is generally reliable, it is
> > still going to be a lot easier to find a replacement innertube than a
> > replacement CMOS chip.
> >
> > The only "critical part" is the control of the air flow. I expect there are
> > devices that do this just fine. Without doing any research, just a pressure
> > regulator like the kind you find on an air compressor should get you close.
> >
> > The rest of the system is then subject to local adaptation. It could be a
> > flywheel-powered compressor in one place, a PV powered electric pump in
> > another (allowing you to store the air when the sun was shining and use it
> > whenever you want without the problem of batteries), water pressure, ...
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:55 AM, <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Andrew and list:
> > >
> > > This is to ask for your thoughts on a different approach to air
> > > control than a fan (with or without a battery). That is to use a
> > > (pre-pumped) air storage "bladder".
> > > My rationale for this query includes:
> > > 1. energy storage via air (CAES) has quite a few proponents. Large
> > > vehicles have operated on air storage (where electricity was a hazard) and
> > > there are companies building cars based on air storage..
> > > 2. compressed air supply is common in many places - as air-motors are
> > > lighter weight and cheaper than electric.
> > > 3. What is needed in TLUDs is controllable primary air - not
> > > electricity. In Josh Kearn's bicycle-flywheel-fan proposal, one can
> > > compress air perhaps as easily as putting energy into a flywheel (using
> > > inner tubes or similar) and then conversion to a fan/blower. That is - one
> > > is storing exactly what you want to supply - no energy conversions needed.
> > > 4. I think there are controllable constant volume-flow valves - that
> > > would also allow controlling power levels (turn down ratios).
> > > 5. Your use below of the term 1 cubic meter per 1 kg biomass sounds
> > > potentially doable with moderate size "bladders". I have no idea how many
> > > atmospheres of pressure is reasonable, nor what material (if any) might be
> > > appropriate with simple TLUDs. The issue only is whether air storage might
> > > be cheaper than other approaches. As Crispin pointed out, the low pressure
> > > above the fuel supply reduces the needed pressure (but not the amount of
> > > needed air).
> > > 6. The fact that the air will be heated going into the "bladder" and
> > > cooled coming out might not be a problem is the air is preheated by flowing
> > > downward through an outer air-tight "jacket" surrounding the fuel chamber.
> > > 7. My gut feeling is that this will only work economically if a
> > > second use can be found for the "bladder". Solar plus rechargeable
> > > batteries can be pretty cheap when you are also getting lighting, radio,
> > > cell-phone-recharging, etc.
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *From: *ajheggie at gmail.com
> > > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > *Sent: *Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:28:24 AM
> > > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:54:18 +0700, Paul Olivier wrote:
> > >
> > > >The second is the pressure resistance of the fan (40x40x28mm).
> > > >For a gasifier of a 150 mm diameter, the pressure resistance has to be at
> > > >least 0.87 InAq.
> > >
> > > InAq being inches of water gauge above atmospheric? If so this is
> > > about 250 Pascal, so 1 kg of dry biomass burned per hour at
> > > stoichiometric air for complete gasification should be around 1m3 of
> > > air, the 5m3 of air needed for secondary combustion would not need to
> > > pass through the bed and as Crispin has said the offgas can entrain
> > > the secondary air, though this is work it probably isn't much compared
> > > with the resistance of the fuel bed. Rice husks have a high ash
> > > content so I'm guessing its the ash that is serving to increase
> > > resistance by blocking pores between the husks.
> > >
> > > Does the same happen with other fuels previously mentioned?
> > >
> > > 1m3 of cold air per hour is about 1/3 of a litre per second. As power
> > > is force time distance and pressure and volume have terms for distance
> > > that cancel out then power is pressure time volume per second in SI
> > > units.
> > >
> > > 250 Pascal times 0.0003 seems to be 0.075W so there seems to be a fair
> > > loss of conversion efficiency in the system somewhere, fans should be
> > > about 70% efficient but as things get small they tend to get more
> > > lossy. Or are my calculations wrong?
> > >
> > > Axial fans are particularly good at thrashing air into heat with no
> > > useful work as they stall, they are good at moving large volumes with
> > > little drop in pressure across them, laptop fans seem to be better as
> > > they tend to be centrifugal ones that push air along narrow ducts.
> > >
> > > AJH
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Phil Hughes
> > nicafyl at gmail.com
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 18:02:17 +0000
> > From: Ranyee Chiang <rchiang at cleancookstoves.org>
> > To: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: [Stoves] Public Comment Period: Measuring Global Alliance
> > progress
> > Message-ID:
> > <AE6BE5C8FD9DBF4D8CA0C003E58E2A441A36FA25 at mississippi.UNF.unfoundation.org>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > The Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves is developing a framework to be used in Phase I of its activities for measuring progress towards the key milestone of 100 million households adopting clean and efficient stoves and fuels by 2020. The Global Alliance is seeking feedback on the proposed framework and is holding a public comment period.
> >
> > The document describing the proposed framework is attached. Please submit comments through the Global Alliance's online community. If you do not have an account already, you may register here<http://community.cleancookstoves.org/registration>. After you have logged into your account, join the Monitoring and Evaluation community<http://community.cleancookstoves.org/communities/home/36> and submit your comments by posting in this discussion topic<http://community.cleancookstoves.org/communities/forums/viewtopic/36/53/72>.
> >
> > The document is also available online<http://community.cleancookstoves.org/communities/files/36/216> for people who have joined the online community.
> >
> > The public comment period closes September 12, 2012.
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > Name: Measuring Progress Phase I Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves.pdf
> > Type: application/pdf
> > Size: 633746 bytes
> > Desc: Measuring Progress Phase I Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves.pdf
> > URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120901/0f4a0a85/attachment.pdf>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1
> > *************************************
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:02:01 +0100
> From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Powering a TLUD Fan
> Message-ID: <hj5648hbc623o3oj0hj21u3pro7s308r15 at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> First to report that Frans Peeters has tried a small 1 W laptop fan
> and it failed to achieve any pressure which is a disappointment, he
> points out that vacuum cleaners give better pressure performance but
> they are thousands of times too big. To achieve pressure with a
> centrifugal (snail) fan needs high rpm and diameter, volume comes with
> the depth of the rotor. Centrifugal fans for moving grain are large
> diameter and narrow so perhaps we need to stick with the small PC
> axial fan motor and shaft and put a purpose built vane on it.
>
> The main point of my previous post was to point out the apparent
> disparity between the power consumed by the fan compared with the
> power theoretically necessary to move the required amount of air and
> look for suggestions for improvement.
>
> On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 16:55:43 +0000 (UTC), rongretlarson at comcast.net
> wrote:
>
> >Andrew and list:
> >
> >This is to ask for your thoughts on a different approach to air control than a fan (with or without a battery). That is to use a (pre-pumped) air storage "bladder" .
> >My rationale for this query includes:
> >1. energy storage via air (CAES) has quite a few proponents. Large vehicles have operated on air storage (where electricity was a hazard) and there are companies building cars based on air storage..
>
>
> Yes and in rigid tanks air storage is maintained for many years
> without loss. There is a caveat though and that is that when you
> expand the air as it does work it has to leave the "engine" it's
> doing work on at the same temperature as before it was compressed,
> this means adding heat, otherwise you lose all the energy that went
> into heating up the gas as you stored it.
>
> Overall I'm still of the opinion that a charger using PV or TEG
> technology is the most hope because of the benefits of mass
> production, no moving parts and simplicity offered.
>
>
> >2. compressed air supply is common in many places - as air-motors are lighter weight and cheaper than electric.
>
> Yes but does anyone know of their efficiency, from Frans' comments it
> seems that small fans are not efficient. I'm wondering about the
> motors used in dentists' drills, has anyone ever seen one apart?
>
> >3. What is needed in TLUDs is controllable primary air - not electricity. In Josh Kearn's bicycle-flywheel-fan proposal, one can compress air perhaps as easily as putting energy into a flywheel (using inner tubes or similar) and then conversion to a fan/blower. That is - one is storing exactly what you want to supply - no energy conversions needed.
>
> You compress air adiabatically, so the pump gets hot, this heat is
> lost as the air enters the tank, in fact it is best to keep the tank
> as cool as possible because as it gets warm the pressure needed to
> pump into the tank increases. Over time as the tank cools pressure is
> lost, this is why it is necessary to add heat before the stored air is
> used to do work.
>
> Similarly in the case of a rubber balloon the pressure-volume
> characteristic is different from a rigid tank and energy is expended
> in stretching the fabric, not all of this energy is given up as the
> balloon deflates.
>
> I do not think bicycle tyre pumps are very efficient compared with a
> metal piston with compression rings and as you go for higher pressures
> with reciprocation pumps it is necessary to have stages with cooling
> in between. A wind turbine powered air pump??
>
> >4. I think there are controllable constant volume-flow valves - that would also allow controlling power levels (turn down ratios).
>
> Yes but what throttling losses do they incur? It's probably much like
> using resistors to control current as opposed to quickly switching the
> full voltage to control current with less I2R losses.
>
> The thing about storing compressed gas is a bit like storing
> electricity in super capacitors, which Crispin suggests, as the
> reserve empties the potential of the remaining store reduces, this
> makes control difficult, but doable with modern electronics but with
> compressed air engines??.
>
> With an electric cell the energy stored for a large part of the
> discharge is at a fairly constant voltage, I see Andrew Parker points
> out a way around this by pumping a separate bellows which raises a
> weight to maintain constant pressure. This is much how town gas was
> stored before we went to high pressure mains and natural gas.
>
> I think the natural gas supply to my house is about 21 millibar which
> is around 7 inches of water gauge so Paul's requirement does seem
> modest.
>
>
> >5. Your use below of the term 1 cubic meter per 1 kg biomass sounds potentially doable with moderate size "bladders". I have no idea how many atmospheres of pressure is reasonable, nor what material (if any) might be appropriate with simple TLUDs. The issue only is whether air storage might be cheaper than other approaches. As Crispin pointed out, the low pressure above the fuel supply reduces the needed pressure (but not the amount of needed air).
> >6. The fact that the air will be heated going into the "bladder" and cooled coming out might not be a problem is the air is preheated by flowing downward through an outer air-tight "jacket" surrounding the fuel chamber.
>
> Okay I see you have the point of adiabatic compression and isothermal
> storage on board, yes you would need to preheat the gas before it is
> needed to do work, some sort of coiled skirt around the pot may do.
>
> >7. My gut feeling is that this will only work economically if a second use can be found for the "bladder". Solar plus rechargeable batteries can be pretty cheap when you are also getting lighting, radio, cell-phone-recharging, etc.
>
> Which is why I prefer this route, small scale battery power has much
> more utility for lighting and IT. With many devices now being charged
> and powered by USB I would plump for this as being the standard to aim
> for.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 14:40:15 +0200
> From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no>
> To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Re powering a TLUD
> Message-ID: <2AEF5AAFA41040CEB778CD191C876A02 at PaalPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Stovers
>
> What about a 2 inch pipe with a stamp and handle like an old bicycle pump, adjusted to give sufficient air to the TLUD while cooking if extra air is needed, just lift up the handle and let it go down by itself? No batteries needed, just a drop of oil for the leather gasket once a year.
>
> Paal W
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 13:54:58 +0100
> From: Steve Taylor <steve at thetaylorfamily.org.uk>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re powering a TLUD
> Message-ID:
> <CAGW2POj385voR1nHv2hKNb7qc-J6yv+u2uaCzCqfb9zBhFEP3w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 2 September 2012 13:40, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>
> > Stovers
> >
> > What about a 2 inch pipe with a stamp and handle like an old bicycle
> > pump, adjusted to give sufficient air to the TLUD while cooking if extra
> > air is needed, just lift up the handle and let it go down by itself? No
> > batteries needed, just a drop of oil for the leather gasket once a year.
> >
> >
> We've been round this design loop many times in the past, its not do-able
> in practice.
>
> Steve
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:32:22 +0100
> From: ajheggie at gmail.com
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re powering a TLUD
> Message-ID: <bnn6489s6e8lua8v3d6320q2vcsioug9lp at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 13:54:58 +0100, Steve Taylor wrote:
>
> >>
> >We've been round this design loop many times in the past, its not do-able
> >in practice.
> >
> >S
> I'm glad you've popped up Steve, did you ever get to see if it was
> possible to make a Seebeck/Peltier junction by laying down a mig weld
> using dissimilar metals?
>
> Again my reasoning is that a metal junction pile will be robust and
> whilst a factor of ten worse in converting heat flux to electricity
> there isn't much thermal cost.
>
> AJH
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:08:37 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] fuelwood costs in Bangladesh
> Message-ID: <0e5101cd8914$73305130$5990f390$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Steven
>
>
>
> Based on your subjective appearance, is there anything obvious about the
> relationship between 'higher' and 'lower' quality wood and the price? For
> example once wood has been termed 'waste', is there a tier of 'goodness'
> about the different qualities or sources?
>
>
>
> Is stick wood better than chunks, for example? Does sawdust fall into its
> own category?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what the fuel wood cost is in the cities of Bangladesh, but if
> this is at all helpful to you, in Kolkata (where I'm working - not too far
> across the India/Bangladesh border) fuel wood is sold for INR 5 - 7 / kg,
> depending on the wood type (wastewood from carpentry shops / recycled door
> frames etc / sticks from trees felled in the region).
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 25, Issue 2
> *************************************
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