[Stoves] Stove Definition

Tue Apr 30 20:10:07 CDT 2013

Dear Tom
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tom Miles 
  To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' ; 'Frank Shields' 
  Cc: 'Jim Jetter' ; 'Hugh McLaughlin' 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 6:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition

  Kevin,

  We are not going to waste time here redefining “Stoves.”  

  # If there is an acceptable definition of "stoves", please provide one. Having a definition of what constitutes a "stove" would be an excellent place to start when developing a testing and Reporting Procedure for whatever is included within the definition of a "Stove."

  This list is for the discussion of biomass cooking stoves for developing countries. 

  Other appliances such as heating stoves and hot water boilers are included and enter the discussion when appropriate. 

  http://www.stoves.bioenergylists.org/about

  # While the Stoves List is primarily focused on Cooking stoves for developing Countries,  you do indicate  that this Stoves List is interested in hot water boilers and space heaters. They could thus be included  when developing a Testing and reporting Protocol. While this Stoves List is excellent in many ways, all that happens with stoves does not happen on this List. If the Stove Testing and Reporting protocol is well thought out, then it could serve the stove testing requirements for both developing and developed Countries, and for areas and interests not of specific interest or relevance to this Stoves List. 

  Read the literature on the stoves, ETHOS, Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves, GIZ and other sites and you will find definitions, design principles, procedures for evaluating cookstove safety, design, and performance testing.  

  # Which ones would you suggest would be most relevant to developing a stove testing and reporting protocol?

  This list is NOT about heating and cooking appliances in developed countries that you suggest, such as fireplace inserts or free standing space heating stoves. 

  # That is fine for this Stoves List. However, I would suggest that there is a serious "backfire potential, if Stove Testing Standards are lower for Developing Countries than for Developed Countries.  Certainly, the standards will be different for Developing Countries, with different Housing standards, but the end result should yield a "living environment" in terms of health and safety that is equivalent to that of the Developed world. 

  Since the late 1970s we have spent years developing the standards and efficiencies for those appliances. 

  # Excellent! We can build on established testing and reporting protocols, and do not have to "re-invent the wheel in totality."

  They are now regulated industries based on methods and laws developed by several members of this list and expressed in the regulations of many countries, including the Canadian standards that you refer too. If you want to discuss those appliances then go to the organizations (e.g. Hearth Products Association, Pellet Fuels Institute, etc.) and lists such as woodheat at yahoo.com that are dedicated to those appliances. Having said that many people involved in the production and manufacture of appliances for developed countries do participate in the development of biomass cooking stoves for developing countries and participate in this and other forums. Participants on this list have often adapted tools or techniques from those appliances to cooking stoves with variable success.

  # My interest is in contributing to  the development of sensible testing and reporting protocols, that have a sound Engineering and Science base.  Such tests should measure performance, and should report the results in an unbiased manner. The tests should be relevant to the interests of the Stove Customer, and should assist the Customer in making a stove selection that is most appropriate to his needs. The selected tests, and the manner in which they are reported should not mis-direct or mislead the Customer, whether an individual or an Aid Organization.

  The function and performance criteria are clear: improved health and resource management through energy efficiency. 

  # This is an excellent statement of what should be measured and reported on for each stove appliance submitted for testing.

  1: Forest resource demands are reduced with stoves that are fuel efficient.  

  2:  There are well known methods for evaluating the fuel efficiency of an appliance. These methods are accurate and repeatable. 

  3: Health and safety considerartions can be measured and reported on.

  The performance characteristics of any given stove can be reported, in a manner that assists teh Customer to select the Stove Appliance most appropriate to his needs.

  The challenge is much greater than in regulated sectors because it is a voluntary international activity. 

  # I would suggest that relevant stove testing and reporting procedures can be developed by drawing heavily on teh testing and reporting protocols that are already established by and for teh Regulated sectors, especially considering the relatively limited availability of Volunteed input.

  We are here to discuss concepts and experiences for the design, fabrication, testing and dissemination of improved cooking stoves throughout the world. 

  # My interest at the present is in contributing to a relevant testing and reporting procedure, one that works to the benefit of the Stove Customer, and which reports performance of vartious appliances in a transparent and unbiased manner.

  Best wishes,

  Kevin

  Thanks

  Tom

  Owner, Biomass Cooking Stoves

  www.stoves.bioenergylists.org

  From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
  Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:12 PM
  To: Frank Shields; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
  Cc: 'Jim Jetter'; 'Hugh McLaughlin'; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
  Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Definition

  Dear Frank

  I get your point about the difficulty in getting agreement between people in a large group. However, I would suggest that a "generally agreed upon" definition of a "Stove" will help greatly in establishing "safety and for performance.stove standards". For example a wood burning "stove" that does not meet Canadian Standards Association (CSA) or Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Standards cannot be sold in Canada or the US, in that Insurance Companies will not insure a home or business in which they are installed. If for no other reason than being able to define the stove well enough to be able to select the correct Standard, a "stove definition" is important and necessary.

  These Standards for safety and performance are very helpful. They can provide excellent guidance on how to design and install stove appliances so that they do not hurt people, or lead to house fires. 

  The major interest in "Stoves" on the "Stove List" seems to be in "Cooking stoves in the Tropics."  However, there are places in the world where biomass fuelled space heaters are required.  What about  the following applications for biomass heating and cooking:

  * Fireplace inserts

  * Free standing space heating wood stoves

  * Cooking ranges

  * Wood heated hot water boilers

  How should they fit in with the scheme of things?

  best wishes,

  Kevin

  Best wishes,

  Kevin

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Frank Shields 

    To: 'Kevin' ; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' 

    Cc: 'Jim Jetter' ; 'Hugh McLaughlin' ; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' 

    Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:41 PM

    Subject: RE: Stove Definition

    Dear Kevin,

    The compost community gave up on a definition for compost after many attempts. Some have their own but they are never agreed upon by all as there are outliers of the norm. . 

    We just go along as if we all know what compost is. 

    Some interest in the biochar group to come up with a definition for biochar. It will never happen. : ) And it doesn’t matter. 

    I think the same with Stoves. 

    Regards

    Frank

    Thanks 

    Frank Shields

    BioChar Division

    Control Laboratories, Inc. 

    42 Hangar Way

    Watsonville, CE  95076

    (831) 724-5422 tel

    (81) 724-3188 fax

    frank at biocharlab.com

    www.controllabs.com

    From: Kevin [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net] 
    Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:51 AM
    To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Frank Shields
    Cc: 'Jim Jetter'; 'Hugh McLaughlin'; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
    Subject: Stove Definition

    Dear List

    Just what is a "stove?"

    I would suggest that it is important that we all know what a "stove" is, when we attempt to determine the difference between a "good stove" and a "poor stove.'

    When we ask Mr. Google, we get more than 7 million hits. However, the most common definitions seem to be typified by the one at

     http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stove

    " 1a : a portable or fixed apparatus that burns fuel or uses electricity to provide heat (as for cooking or heating) "

    At http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ , the stated purpose of the site is:

    "Our site is dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions. "

    What about accepting the Merriam-Webster definition for a "stove?"

    Would anyone have a better definition for a "stove?"

    Best wishes,

    Kevin

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