[Stoves] load of carbon negativity on the backs of the poor/ Re: what causes warming deosn't matter

Fri Aug 23 00:57:08 CDT 2013

Biochar making stove can make into pyrolysis heat, such things as ordinary
fire does not. Leaves, etc.

People in survival situtation existence may not be assumed to sacrficie
their heating for sake of climate. But... many may find it purposeful to
use whenever possible, the cooking produced charcoal for making new food
gardening patches to sustaine themselves, to increase gardening patches
food production yield. Luckily... side effect from this new permanent soil
making is... charcoal in soil, not in atmospheric cycle.

I like in Anila stove, the point that it can burn wood for cooking if
needed... or it can make any dry biomass to charcoal while cooking... and
it can also burn charcoal if needed.
Generally people know their own needs best... and if they choose to save as
much of the charcoal as possible for soil making, to get themselves more
food... good for all if that is possible.
No need to buy wood, if there is rice husk, or dry leaves, or dry seaweeds
at coast... and pyrolyser stove makes just fine (well, sometimes bit
tricky, hot and quick) cooking flame from those... and leaves the
powder-type charcoal as by-product (not easy to burn... may be needed to be
pressed to pellets first... but easier to use for gardening patch soil
making.

Most experiences and estimates above, based on Anila stove.

MaxT

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>wrote:

> See comments below.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
>> **
>> ****
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I don’t have any new ideas about climate change other than an opinion
>> about cooking stoves as it relates to biochar and climate change.****
>>
>> For me the idea that you can change the climate, with cooking stoves,
>> just doesn’t seem reasonable. ****
>>
>> Even if adding the charcoal as biochar to the soil were to make a
>> difference in atmospheric CO2 levels, ****
>>
>> I don’t believe anyone so poor, as to cook with wood,  is going to bury
>> their charcoal, because charcoal is worth more than wood they just gathered
>> or paid for.
>>
>
> Here in Vietnam, rice hulls are abundant and cheap. If someone puts them
> in a gasifier stove, she gets a high-grade heat that can boil 5 liters of
> water in 12 minutes. After that, the biochar where I live can be sold to
> greenhouses at a relatively high price. The sale of the biochar easily
> covers the cost of the original rice hulls. It even covers the cost of the
> more expensive rice hull pellet. Three tons of rice hull pellets (total
> cost of these 3 tons is $228) can produce one ton of pelleted biochar worth
> $400. So gas is produced at a negative cost. When the rice hull biochar is
> put in the soil, it makes plants grow faster, and it reduces fertilizer and
> water use. But best of all it locks CO2 in the soil for thousands of years.
>
>
>> ****
>>
>> If there is any charcoal left from a fire, it can be burned along in the
>> next fire,  or can be burned in a stove made just for charcoal .
>>
>
> Why burn biochar when there is so much agricultural and forestry waste
> that gets uselessly burned? The burning of rice hulls, rice straw and
> forest debris is a huge environmental problem in Vietnam. Let us gasify all
> of this waste, and return the biochar to the rice paddy and to the forests
> to enrich the soil. Rice hull biochar can increase the yield of rice in
> some places by as much as 3 times.
>
>
>> ****
>>
>> A good flexible stove should burn either or both.****
>>
>> If burying charcoal as biochar is to be a fix for climate change, it is
>> going to need to be done on an industrial scale by more affluent people,
>> people with big machines.
>>
>
> I believe that it should be kept small-scale. Biochar merchants could
> supply raw pellets to households free-of-charge in exchange for an equal
> volume of biochar pellets. Almost everything in a country such as Vietnam
> is small-scale, and I strongly believe that it should remain so. The
> average rice farmer has less than one hectare of land. The average pig
> farmer in Vietnam has less than ten pigs. It would be ashamed to
> industrialize agriculture, as we see in Europe and America. I am a big
> believer in all that is small-scale, local and intensive:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Summaries/Food%20Crisis.pdf
>
>
>> ****
>>
>> Since appeal to emotion has become part of the debate, here is mine.****
>>
>> *Who are we to add this load of “carbon negativity” on to the backs of
>> the poor with our charcoal making but not charcoal burning stoves?*
>>
>
> Here in a country such as Vietnam, a carbon-negative stove can make money
> for the cook each time it is used: through the sale of biochar.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
>
>> **
>>
>> The poor need stoves that can burn both wood and charcoal efficiently.***
>> *
>>
>> Lanny Henson****
>>
>> **
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2013 6:36 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] what causes warming deosn't matter.
>>
>>  No one denies that designing stoves that impact human health in a
>> positive manner is important. But if we can design stoves that meet goals
>> relating to human health *and *the environment, then it makes sense to
>> do so. And it make sense to discuss the design of such stoves on this stove
>> list. There are broader issues involved than just human health. Let us go
>> back to this phrase that appears in a GACC document: tier 4 stoves "stretch
>> goals which achieve significant health *and/or *environmental goals."
>> And within the same document, under global environmental goals, mention is
>> made of reducing the emission of greenhouse gases. Is CO2 not a greenhouse
>> gas? Does it not warm our planet? Does some of it not end up in our oceans
>> and make it more alkaline to the extent that it harms many forms of aquatic
>> life? The real work on the ground is not just what happens in a kitchen. It
>> is also what happens when sea levels begin to rise, when one third of the
>> Mekong lies underwater, when oceans acidify, when shellfish die, when
>> glaciers melt, when polar bears no longer have a home and so forth. As we
>> broaden our vision, we just might end up designing much better stoves.
>>
>> Many thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:10 AM, <rbtvl at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  I have been silent.  but.....  It doesn't make any difference what any
>>> of us think about the source of global warming.  I happen to think humans
>>> have caused it.  but so what?  What I think doesn't matter.  Not in the
>>> least.  My work with the women in the field, doing the best design and
>>> distribution work we can do, saving them three afternoons of menial wood
>>> gathering labor every week, getting the smoke out of their houses,
>>> preserving for a while their disappearing forests, doesn't depend in any
>>> way on whether I think it is getting warmer because of a century of
>>> industrialization in the northern hemisphere, or because of some
>>> other reason.   We design for less fuel burned, for less emissions of all
>>> kinds inside and outside, especially where people are breathing, don't
>>> we?.  My analysis of the impact of the industrial revolution is hardly
>>> relevant.
>>>
>>> back to work.  come on!
>>>
>>> bob
>>>
>>> Robert V. Lange
>>> Maasai Stoves and Solar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
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