[Stoves] load of carbon negativity on the backs of the poor/ Re: what causes warming deosn't matter

Thu Aug 22 23:32:11 CDT 2013

See comments below.

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> **
> ****
>
> Paul,
>
> I don’t have any new ideas about climate change other than an opinion
> about cooking stoves as it relates to biochar and climate change.****
>
> For me the idea that you can change the climate, with cooking stoves, just
> doesn’t seem reasonable. ****
>
> Even if adding the charcoal as biochar to the soil were to make a
> difference in atmospheric CO2 levels, ****
>
> I don’t believe anyone so poor, as to cook with wood,  is going to bury
> their charcoal, because charcoal is worth more than wood they just gathered
> or paid for.
>

Here in Vietnam, rice hulls are abundant and cheap. If someone puts them in
a gasifier stove, she gets a high-grade heat that can boil 5 liters of
water in 12 minutes. After that, the biochar where I live can be sold to
greenhouses at a relatively high price. The sale of the biochar easily
covers the cost of the original rice hulls. It even covers the cost of the
more expensive rice hull pellet. Three tons of rice hull pellets (total
cost of these 3 tons is $228) can produce one ton of pelleted biochar worth
$400. So gas is produced at a negative cost. When the rice hull biochar is
put in the soil, it makes plants grow faster, and it reduces fertilizer and
water use. But best of all it locks CO2 in the soil for thousands of years.

> ****
>
> If there is any charcoal left from a fire, it can be burned along in the
> next fire,  or can be burned in a stove made just for charcoal .
>

Why burn biochar when there is so much agricultural and forestry waste that
gets uselessly burned? The burning of rice hulls, rice straw and forest
debris is a huge environmental problem in Vietnam. Let us gasify all of
this waste, and return the biochar to the rice paddy and to the forests to
enrich the soil. Rice hull biochar can increase the yield of rice in some
places by as much as 3 times.

> ****
>
> A good flexible stove should burn either or both.****
>
> If burying charcoal as biochar is to be a fix for climate change, it is
> going to need to be done on an industrial scale by more affluent people,
> people with big machines.
>

I believe that it should be kept small-scale. Biochar merchants could
supply raw pellets to households free-of-charge in exchange for an equal
volume of biochar pellets. Almost everything in a country such as Vietnam
is small-scale, and I strongly believe that it should remain so. The
average rice farmer has less than one hectare of land. The average pig
farmer in Vietnam has less than ten pigs. It would be ashamed to
industrialize agriculture, as we see in Europe and America. I am a big
believer in all that is small-scale, local and intensive:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Paper/Summaries/Food%20Crisis.pdf

> ****
>
> Since appeal to emotion has become part of the debate, here is mine.****
>
> *Who are we to add this load of “carbon negativity” on to the backs of
> the poor with our charcoal making but not charcoal burning stoves?*
>

Here in a country such as Vietnam, a carbon-negative stove can make money
for the cook each time it is used: through the sale of biochar.

Thanks.
Paul Olivier

> **
>
> The poor need stoves that can burn both wood and charcoal efficiently.****
>
> Lanny Henson****
>
> **
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2013 6:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] what causes warming deosn't matter.
>
>  No one denies that designing stoves that impact human health in a
> positive manner is important. But if we can design stoves that meet goals
> relating to human health *and *the environment, then it makes sense to do
> so. And it make sense to discuss the design of such stoves on this stove
> list. There are broader issues involved than just human health. Let us go
> back to this phrase that appears in a GACC document: tier 4 stoves "stretch
> goals which achieve significant health *and/or *environmental goals." And
> within the same document, under global environmental goals, mention is made
> of reducing the emission of greenhouse gases. Is CO2 not a greenhouse gas?
> Does it not warm our planet? Does some of it not end up in our oceans and
> make it more alkaline to the extent that it harms many forms of aquatic
> life? The real work on the ground is not just what happens in a kitchen. It
> is also what happens when sea levels begin to rise, when one third of the
> Mekong lies underwater, when oceans acidify, when shellfish die, when
> glaciers melt, when polar bears no longer have a home and so forth. As we
> broaden our vision, we just might end up designing much better stoves.
>
> Many thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 2:10 AM, <rbtvl at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>  I have been silent.  but.....  It doesn't make any difference what any
>> of us think about the source of global warming.  I happen to think humans
>> have caused it.  but so what?  What I think doesn't matter.  Not in the
>> least.  My work with the women in the field, doing the best design and
>> distribution work we can do, saving them three afternoons of menial wood
>> gathering labor every week, getting the smoke out of their houses,
>> preserving for a while their disappearing forests, doesn't depend in any
>> way on whether I think it is getting warmer because of a century of
>> industrialization in the northern hemisphere, or because of some
>> other reason.   We design for less fuel burned, for less emissions of all
>> kinds inside and outside, especially where people are breathing, don't
>> we?.  My analysis of the impact of the industrial revolution is hardly
>> relevant.
>>
>> back to work.  come on!
>>
>> bob
>>
>> Robert V. Lange
>> Maasai Stoves and Solar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> ------------------------------
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>
>

-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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