[Stoves] on ocean acidification

Sat Jul 6 03:48:36 CDT 2013

Crispin,

You write: *
In the case of rain, which has a CO2 content of over 10,000 ppm it is
'50,000% more acidic' than ocean water at pH 8.2. In fact rain really is
acidic.*

Yes, the rain can be quite acidic. But a great deal of this acidity is not
due to natural causes:

*Farming, livestock husbandry, and the combustion of fossil fuels cause
excess sulfur dioxide, ammonia, and nitrogen oxides to be released to the
atmosphere, where they are transformed into nitric acid and sulfuric acid.
Though much of that acid is deposited on land (since it does not remain in
the air for long), some of it can be carried in the air all the way to the
coastal ocean. *
* *

* *

*When nitrogen and sulfur compounds from the atmosphere are mixed into
coastal waters, the researchers found, the change in water chemistry was as
much as 10 to 50 percent of the total changes caused by acidification from
carbon dioxide.*
http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases/2007?tid=3622&cid=31286

Thanks.
Paul Olivier

On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Frank
>
> I want to get the math of this correct. The claim is that the oceans have
> changed pH from 8.2 to 8.1, that this is (at least in part or totally)
> caused by human emissions of CO2, right?  And further that this represents
> a '30% increase in acidity'.
>
> The method described asserts that it is a logarithmic scale and that the
> 30% and the term 'acidity' are appropriate.
>
> I would like to put this in perspective. If the 'acidity' rose 15,800%
> then the oceans would be Neutral, neither acidic nor alkaline using
> conventional terminology.
>
> As oceans vary from about 8.4 to 7.8 that is a natural variation of
> '400%', using the same definition as is applied in the case of '30%'.
>
> In the case of rain, which has a CO2 content of over 10,000 ppm it is
> '50,000% more acidic' than ocean water at pH 8.2. In fact rain really is
> acidic.
>
> Seems to me that if '30%' is catastrophic the EPA should ban rainfall with
> immediate effect. It is obviously wrecking the ocean.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> From BB9900
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 10:29:22
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>
> This is a very good topic and related to Stoves to the point of noting the
> difference of a measure of Biochar pH value and alkalinity value. The pH is
> really not that important as many think it is. It's the alkalinity that is
> important. Having a water with a pH of 8.3 takes little acid to lower the
> pH
> but toss in a chunk of lime and the pH is still 8.3 but you will need to
> add
> acid until all the lime is dissolved before the pH goes down. So pH is just
> a reading. Alkalinity (or neutralizing value) is a measure of the amount of
> buffering holding that pH. We report this as CaCO3 equivalent units so it
> can be compared to adding limestone to a soil. We boil a Biochar sample in
> 100 mls of 0.5N HCl to dissolve all the carbonates and oxides in the sample
> then back titrate using NaOH to determine the amount buffering (or
> neutralizing value) the sample has.  Much more useful.
>
> Frank
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank Shields
>
> BioChar Division
> Control Laboratories, Inc.
> 42 Hangar Way
> Watsonville, CE  95076
>
> (831) 724-5422 tel
> (81) 724-3188 fax
> frank at biocharlab.com
> www.controllabs.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> ajheggie at gmail.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 11:47 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 23:21:20 -0600,Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy
> Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com> wrote:
>
> >I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is necessary
> >that an error be corrected before this thread is put to sleep.
>
> Mark I'm happy with your correction explaining pH. As we generally do use
> pH
> to denote acidity rather than hydrogen ions I think it is misleading to
> then
> say a 30% increase in hydrogen ion activity equates to a 30% change in
> acidity.
>
> I think change in ocean ecology due to this small change in pH is a very
> serious concern but please all of you take the discussion elsewhere and
> stick to stove issues.
>
> AJH
>
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-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
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