[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 35, Issue 7
Todd Albi
todd.r.albi at gmail.com
Mon Jul 8 23:47:14 CDT 2013
Subject: Designs for affluent & poor / push & pull, yammer yammer
* *
Stove R&D and business development are hard work. Everyone can
contribute. Perhaps just rolling up your sleeves and getting something
done is most important. What’s with the ideology of a best R&D or business
model anyway? There are many public & private organizations that balance
R&D and business development effectively.
Since *SilverFire Clean Cooking Products* was mentioned on the Stove list,
I’ll clarify that our mission is to benefit the BOP with high quality
products at humanitarian cost pricing schedules and developed nation
pricing specific to that customer base. Granted this model may not always
work, e.g. some customers with limited budgets or other agendas may opt for
$11 USD mild steel TLUD that we can recommend (with prejudice, due to
minimal stove shelf life).
We prefer recommending high quality products when possible, for more
successful outcomes. Adding stainless steel, refractory metals, and cast
iron tops extend durability, however these superior stove materials may
mean the difference of successful project, product adoption & *Customer
Pull, *despite higher individual unit costs is our thinking.
The point of consideration here is options. Innovation and sales drive can
drive more options, opportunities for customer input, education,
validation, and improved technologies. Our new natural draft SS chimney
TLUD is durable, stylish, and is available now. It is not a concept stove
and our rocket stove sales paid for the chimney stove. This chimney stove
has the capacity for an immediate and dramatic impact on household health.
The thermal efficiency is ≥35%, CO≤1%, SO2≤ 20mg/m3, NO≤ 120mg/m3,&
Ringelmann level≤ 1,if interested.
The launch of this product was possible with the collaboration between R&D
& business development. Consumers of both the developed & the developing
world now have the option to benefit from this clean cook stove design, or
others.
Regards,
Todd Albi, SilverFire
todd.r.albi at gmail
On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:00 AM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2 (Lanny Henson)
> 2. Re: pellet gasifier (Paul Olivier)
> 3. Re: Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT
> Re: ocean acidification (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 4. Re: Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 5. Re: Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2 (Lanny Henson)
> 6. Re: Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT
> Re: ocean acidification (M. Nurhuda)
> 7. Re: Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT
> Re: ocean acidification (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> 8. Re: Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2 (Paul Anderson)
> 9. Re: on ocean acidification (Frank Shields)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 18:36:55 -0400
> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
> Message-ID: <CF2449C597954452AF6B89BB99EEBF59 at HP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
> reply-type=original
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2U4dY5zjJA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUmRH3cm5dzmsfvERZHEIP7Q
>
>
>
> This is my commercial duty wood fired cooking stove the ?School Lunch
> Cooker? prototype #2
>
> I designed this stove to cook the larger quantities necessary for school
> lunch programs in developing areas like Haiti
>
> It heats a 40 quart or smaller pot, and a 22? pan, and I am working on a
> cook top adapter for multiple pots.
>
> It is sized for commercial and institutional applications.
>
> This stove will pasteurize water, heat bath, laundry and kitchen water, and
> you can do laundry and dishes in the 40 quart pot.
>
> This cooker is user friendly, is quick to fire and easy to use. It is very
> efficient, very functional and very durable. It burns a variety of wood or
> charcoal. It performs a variety of cooking task, and cooks outside in all
> weather,. It is very portable and is somewhat controllable.
>
> This stove is less hassle than portable propane fired stoves considering
> the
> time and expense to refill tanks.
>
> I have two more videos coming soon, one is of a newer prototype and I will
> have some information about the unique TLC ?top lit combustor? burner.
>
> Lanny Henson
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 06:15:55 +0700
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> To: "M. Nurhuda" <mnurhuda at ub.ac.id>, Discussion of biomass cooking
> stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] pellet gasifier
> Message-ID:
> <CAOreFvbHZNDm25PRUmX3nn-2i37QgFXK8x8VYUHi0Hkvzq=
> dHA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, there are several differences relating to the fan, the reactor
> housing, burning housing and so forth.
> Just look closely at the picture I have posted.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Pic/IMG_1490.JPG
>
> I make sure that the fan can be easily detached before biochar is emptied.
> Otherwise it is easily damaged by the rising hot air.
>
> I do not use a reactor housing. I am a firm believer in stainless steel,
> and to make a reactor housing in stainless steel is too expensive.
> Stainless steel gives the unit a certain aesthetic appeal which I believe
> is quite important in assuring the consumer that this is not a poor man's
> stove. In my experience, a reactor housing still remains quite hot. The
> housing does not allow one to see if there are hot zones within the reactor
> (channeling). Instead I recommend an enclosure that limits access to the
> reactor and provides stability.
>
> I put a special housing around the Belonio burner that forces secondary air
> to mix with the syngas. Without this housing one gets the diffusion tail
> that can be seen in the picture you just sent me. With a burner housing,
> the diffusion tail disappears:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnM5Itk7wlQ
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/MVI_1574.MOV
>
> But the critical part here is the Belonio burner, which I did not modify in
> any way. This burner allows one to immediately spot the presence of CO2 in
> the syngas. The moment any of the 80 burner holes do not support a flame,
> then CO2 is being formed. With CO2 present, there is a good chance that the
> combustion of CO is not complete.
>
> My effort in stoves is totally non-profit. If anyone would like to set a
> workshop assembling this stove in a particular country, I would be
> delighted.
> I can supply at cost all of the punch-cut parts. There are only three parts
> that are vertical and cannot be punch-cut: the reactor and two parts within
> the burner assembly. These three parts should be made locally using
> conventional rolling equipment, which most workshops possess. Since they
> occupy very little space, punch-cut parts are cheap to transport. In this
> way the local workshop does not have to invest in expensive molds. I am now
> in a position to make thousands of sets of punch-cut parts per month.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 9:12 PM, M. Nurhuda <mnurhuda at ub.ac.id> wrote:
>
> > Dear Paul,
> >
> > I have seen the video you put in your dropbox. Nice stove.
> >
> > Is there any difference in the design principle of your stove from that
> of
> > Prof. A. Belonio? Please check the picture of Belonio's pellet stove.
> >
> > Regards
> > M. Nurhuda
> >
> > > Some of you might be relieved to know that I do not focus only on
> policy
> > > issues.
> > >
> > > This is what this little pellet gasifier looks like:
> > >
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/IMG_1571.JPG
> > >
> > > Today I ran this unit on pellets of diameter of 8 mm. Here I employed a
> > > fan
> > > of only half the air resistance as in the previous run. I filled the
> > > bottom
> > > half of the reactor with pellets, and the top half with loose rice
> hulls.
> > > The loose hulls make the pellets much easier to light, and they do a
> good
> > > job of filtering and cracking the gas. Without the rice hull biochar on
> > > top, I simply cannot get a predominantly blue flame from 8 mm pellets.
> I
> > > would have much preferred to have rice hull pellets of a 6 mm diameter.
> > > And
> > > once again the power of the fan could have been easily reduced by
> another
> > > 50% to only 0.2 InAq.
> > >
> > > In any case, this is what the unit looked like in operation:
> > >
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/MVI_1574.MOV
> > >
> > > Note that the flame is not entirely blue. What amazes me is the amount
> of
> > > heat this unit puts out. The biochar pellets that this unit produces
> are
> > > firm, hard and quite beautiful:
> > >
> >
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/IMG_1563.JPG
> > > When the unit is emptied of biochar, and the biochar pellets are
> dropped
> > > into water, a huge crackling sound is made. Loose rice hull biochar
> does
> > > not react in such a forceful manner when it is quenched.
> > >
> > > It will take a while before this unit could be brought to market. A lot
> > > more work is needed. I think that a pellet gasifier would be ideal in
> > > urban
> > > areas. Transporting and storing large bags of loose rice hulls in an
> > urban
> > > setting is messy and impractical. Hopefully such a small gasifier (the
> > > reactor weighs but 1.2 kgs) would appeal to the more affluent in
> Vietnam.
> > >
> > > I hope you all are not fed up with such technical detail.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > -- Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 19:50:29 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
> is NOT Re: ocean acidification
> Message-ID: <054101ce7b6c$c4f55560$4ee00020$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Steve
>
> >> We made huge efforts to popularize our appropriate technologies among
> the rural poor but failed because the lifestyle of the rich is the role
> model of the poor.
>
> >This is the most profound observation in the comments on this thread, and
> should be a key fact when planning 'what people want '
>
> Or planning what 'they ought to want'.
>
> I must thank Cecil in South Africa and Richard in Obamaland for their
> experienced perspectives. Really worth the read and right on target.
>
> Developing test methods that are culturally appropriate and give accurate
> comparative performance has been an interesting process. The Social Science
> team has provided detailed cooking cycles and that can be translated into
> thermal power and performance numbers that give target performance tiers
> for
> candidate stoves.
>
> Because the finance available is based on achieved results, this approach
> to
> testing gives the financiers some reasonably guarantee that they are
> getting
> what they are paying for.
>
> Regards
> Crispi in Ulaanbaatar
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 19:50:29 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
> Message-ID: <054e01ce7b6c$c7a64490$56f2cdb0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Lanny
>
> Thanks for the clear, concise description.
>
> Do you have a general idea of the heat transfer efficiency?
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2U4dY5zjJA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUmRH3cm
> 5dzmsfvERZHEIP7Q
>
> This is my commercial duty wood fired cooking stove the "School Lunch
> Cooker" prototype #2
>
> I designed this stove to cook the larger quantities necessary for school
> lunch programs in developing areas like Haiti
>
> It heats a 40 quart or smaller pot, and a 22" pan, and I am working on a
> cook top adapter for multiple pots.
>
> It is sized for commercial and institutional applications.
>
> This stove will pasteurize water, heat bath, laundry and kitchen water, and
> you can do laundry and dishes in the 40 quart pot.
>
> This cooker is user friendly, is quick to fire and easy to use. It is very
> efficient, very functional and very durable. It burns a variety of wood or
> charcoal. It performs a variety of cooking task, and cooks outside in all
> weather,. It is very portable and is somewhat controllable.
>
> This stove is less hassle than portable propane fired stoves considering
> the
> time and expense to refill tanks.
>
> I have two more videos coming soon, one is of a newer prototype and I will
> have some information about the unique TLC "top lit combustor" burner.
>
> Lanny Henson
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 21:20:06 -0400
> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
> Message-ID: <140E8161F8274F03BC3717A8FE3DFF48 at HP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>
> Crispin,
>
> I do not know the heat transfer efficiency. The pot shell is a compromise
> between HTE and functionality witch will be more apparent in the 3rd video.
>
> A tight fitting pot skirt or a finshell would improve the efficiency along
> with the pot shell and that is a possibility but I am not sure if it is
> worth the extra expense and hassle. The pot shell totally encloses the pot
> and heats the pot from the top as well as the sides and bottom. The pot
> shell also allows cooking outside in the rain. A pot skirt could interfere
> with moving the pot so that could be a problem. A fin shell stays on the
> pot
> and does dramatically increase the efficiency if you can build one. Here is
> a fin shell on my "Pop Up Fosters Pot" ultra light back pack alcohol stove
> which cooks 600 grams of rice with one table spoon of alcohol.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sMG2PQ4emI
>
> If you can build them out of something other than thin aluminum which will
> melt when using alcohol, they would improve the efficiency of any stove.
>
> Lanny
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2013 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
>
>
> > Dear Lanny
> >
> > Thanks for the clear, concise description.
> >
> > Do you have a general idea of the heat transfer efficiency?
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2U4dY5zjJA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUmRH3cm
> > 5dzmsfvERZHEIP7Q
> >
> > This is my commercial duty wood fired cooking stove the "School Lunch
> > Cooker" prototype #2
> >
> > I designed this stove to cook the larger quantities necessary for school
> > lunch programs in developing areas like Haiti
> >
> > It heats a 40 quart or smaller pot, and a 22" pan, and I am working on a
> > cook top adapter for multiple pots.
> >
> > It is sized for commercial and institutional applications.
> >
> > This stove will pasteurize water, heat bath, laundry and kitchen water,
> > and
> > you can do laundry and dishes in the 40 quart pot.
> >
> > This cooker is user friendly, is quick to fire and easy to use. It is
> very
> > efficient, very functional and very durable. It burns a variety of wood
> or
> > charcoal. It performs a variety of cooking task, and cooks outside in all
> > weather,. It is very portable and is somewhat controllable.
> >
> > This stove is less hassle than portable propane fired stoves considering
> > the
> > time and expense to refill tanks.
> >
> > I have two more videos coming soon, one is of a newer prototype and I
> will
> > have some information about the unique TLC "top lit combustor" burner.
> >
> > Lanny Henson
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 08:41:38 +0700
> From: "M. Nurhuda" <mnurhuda at ub.ac.id>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
> is NOT Re: ocean acidification
> Message-ID:
> <aa3303101d7529c76fc1e1b59bb9820b.squirrel at webmail.ub.ac.id>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear Cecil,
>
> Thank for report.
> Let me comment about the LPG.
>
> As you might know, around 60% of LPG national demands are imported,
> particularly from Aramco. Around 30% are distilled in Indonesian refinery
> facility, but the crude oils are imported from other country. Therefore,
> the economical price of LPG should be at least Rp. 10.000,-/kg or US$
> 1/kg, with assumption that the LPG trading is tax free. However, people
> get the LPG at price of Rp. 4500/kg.
>
> In the last time, there were some discourses to replace LPG with Dimethil
> Ether (DME), but we will see whether the next new president tends to be
> populists, at all cost.
>
> In my personal opinion, if should be not a problem with such populist
> energy policy if we were still oil exporter country, as 20 year ago, but
> in fact, we are now nett oil importer country. Around 500.000-800.0000
> barrels/day (nett) oils are now imported.
>
> Kind regards
> M. Nurhuda
> (East Java, Indonesia)
>
>
>
>
> > Continuing my contribution:
> >
> > Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the
> > governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits
> > several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:
> >
> > (i.) better off families are buying electric rice steamers which they
> > uses
> > regularly thereby reducing the household cooking load by about 25%;
> > (ii.) making limited use of the LPG stove (some families use less than 3
> > kg
> > of LPG a month) for quick cooking tasks such as reheating cold food,
> quick
> > frying tofu and tempe, heating small amounts of water for tea, stir
> frying
> > veggies, etc. The average use of LPG is about 6kg per month which only
> > costs $.50 a kg because the government subsidizes the cost by +/- $.50
> per
> > kg. The point is that households minimize their expenditure for LPG by
> > deciding what stove work tasks they perform using free biomass and what
> > tasks they perform using subsidized electricity and LPG.
> > (iii.) heavy stove work tasks like boiling 20 litres of palm nectar down
> > to
> > 2 kgs of sugar which can take up to 3 hours is done using the traditional
> > high powered stove fueled by free (collected) biomass
> > (iv.) the introduction of the electric rice cooker and the LPG stove has
> > made it possible for rural families to separate between the dirty part of
> > the kitchen where the big pots and woks used for home industries are soot
> > covered and a clean section or corner of the kitchen organized around the
> > LPG stove and rice cooker where the pots are all scrubbed clean.
> >
> > What I observed in Yogyakarta Province is that the percentage of stove
> > work
> > performed using biomass decreases as one moves from deep rural areas into
> > the peri-rural towns and peri-urban zones. Households adjust their
> stoves
> > and energy carriers to their income, kitchen sizes, and the availability
> > of
> > free biomass fuel.
> >
> > The World Bank is now carrying out a many paged questionnaire to attempt
> > to
> > differentiate the geographical zones and economic levels of the biomass
> > economy in Yogyakarta. It turns out to be very complex. Strangely,
> urban
> > families who no longer cook with biomass in their small urban kitchens,
> > continue to eat traditional foods prepared with biomass because there are
> > thousands of small vendors of traditional and regional foods available
> > nearby or on their doorsteps. A significant percentage of the biomass
> > economy has moved out of the small urban kitchen and has been taken over
> > by
> > small vendors and restaurants in the street. In Yogyakarta there is a
> > food
> > vendor every 50 meters of urban corridor.
> >
> > The complexity of the provincial biomass economy is caused by the fact
> > that
> > there are about 10 different major biomass stove using constituencies
> > which
> > expect their stoves to perform specific functions well. Some food
> vendors
> > use charcoal, firewood, LPG and electricity cooking technologies and
> > energy
> > carriers to prepare food for sale to customers.
> >
> > In Indonesia with its 250 000 000 people and +/- 65 million households, I
> > estimate there are more than 100 million biomass stoves in use. These
> 100
> > million biomass stoves are divided up among farming households who mainly
> > use them for household cooking and ceremonial functions, households that
> > use stoves to process crops and generate revenue, peri-rural/peri-urban
> > (intermediate) households which use biomass to minimize expenditure on
> > LPG,
> > food vendors in all zones who prepare large volumes of food for sale,
> > urban
> > households that have converted entirely to a clean kitchen using
> > electricity and LPG that still buys traditional foods from street vendors
> > and small restaurants. Each of these different stove use constituency has
> > its own preferences in terms of what stove work functions it prioritizes.
> > In such a potentially enormous biomass stove market as Indonesia, it
> will
> > be necessary for designer, producers and marketers to target specific
> > stove
> > using communities. We need to first understand what stove work functions
> > they use their stoves to perform and once we know how well their
> > traditional stoves perform these functions we can begin to design and
> > produce stoves that out perform the baseline stove technologies.
> >
> > Hope these remarks do not give you a headache. Anthropologists have a bad
> > reputation because we tend to make solutions that work for the people
> more
> > complex and difficult to deliver. It turns out that reality is normally
> > more complex than we want it to be.
> >
> > In service,
> >
> > Cecil
> >
> > In service,
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Cecil Cook <cec1863 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear stovers,
> >>
> >> Ron asks:
> >> *Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove
> >> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user
> >> question that Cecil asked?*
> >>
> >> The World Bank is currently conducting a many paged questionnaire to
> >> identify the full spectrum of stove use and stove work functions in a
> >> range
> >> of different stove use constituencies. My fieldwork in agricultural
> >> villages in Yogyakarta and Central Java clearly indicated that
> >> traditional
> >> self constructed multi-pothole stoves are used for the following
> >> functions:
> >>
> >> 1. household cooking and water heating (for bathing and
> >> pasteurization) (2 pots cooking/heating at the same time) ,
> >> 2. income generation (making palm sugar, frying chips, crackers and
> >> other snack foods for sale),
> >> 3. drying crops such as corn, peanuts, root crops, herbs for home use
> >> and sale on racks above the stove,
> >> 4. space heating in households that are more than 500 meter ASL,
> >> 5. drying damp firewood and clothes during the rainy season,
> >> 6. cooking large quantities of food to feed the extended family
> >> (woks/pots with 10 to 20 litres of water to boil meat, cook rice,
> >> cook
> >> soups and vegetables) at wedding, funerals (7 observances over 3
> >> years),
> >> and village gatherings (the stove needs to be big enough to deliver
> >> 10 to
> >> 15 kW of power to the pot),
> >> 7. creating a social hearth or focus for the household including
> >> emitting enough flickering light to cook by
> >>
> >> So the traditional stove is versatile multi-functional 'workhorse'.
> >>
> >> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the
> >> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits
> >> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:
> >>
> >> (i.)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:36 AM, <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Kevin, Paul, Steve, AD, List etal
> >>>
> >>> 1. I concur with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just
> >>> received in this thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to
> >>> emulate developed countries on consumer products. I believe we can go
> >>> further and say this applies to incomes.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Mainly I write to note that Kevin (appropriately) places making
> >>> money first on the producer side of the seller-buyer lists. But it
> >>> appears
> >>> nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer side - even though about half of
> >>> the
> >>> messages on this list relate to TLUDs, with all TLUD purveyors well
> >>> aware
> >>> that charcoal can be sold by TLUD stove users. Both of Kevin's lists
> >>> are
> >>> below
> >>>
> >>> 3. Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove
> >>> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user
> >>> question that Cecil asked?
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From: *"Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> >>> *To: *"Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "Discussion of biomass
> >>> cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 7, 2013 2:27:19 AM
> >>>
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor....
> >>> this
> >>> is NOT Re: ocean acidification
> >>>
> >>> Dear Paul
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> Cc: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
> >>> is
> >>> NOT Re: ocean acidification
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kevin and all,
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or
> >>> > "Customer Pull"?
> >>> Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so
> >>> few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is
> >>> likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".
> >>>
> >>> # An astute Producer will find out what the Customer REALLY wants, and
> >>> will
> >>> configure his Product Offering to meet the wants to the greatest
> >>> extent
> >>> possible. Stove design involves compromises, and the trick is to get as
> >>> many
> >>> of the wanted features as is possible, without building in "unwanted
> >>> features", such as "too costly", "too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too
> >>> unsafe", etc.
> >>>
> >>> I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at
> >>> least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience
> >>> and
> >>> are not driven by the monetary reward.
> >>>
> >>> # "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad". It is "good" if the
> >>> producer aagressively and effectively promotes a product that
> >>> accurately
> >>> addresses the Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the Producer
> >>> incorporates
> >>> features that are now wanted by the Customer.
> >>>
> >>> Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances
> >>> that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any
> >>> attempts
> >>> to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer
> >>> Push or Push from Outside of their societies.
> >>>
> >>> # This is where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so
> >>> important.
> >>> He
> >>> sets out to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important
> >>> to
> >>> the customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that
> >>> best
> >>> meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine,
> >>> with
> >>> new technology, better materials, better design, etc.
> >>>
> >>> # The 'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a
> >>> stove
> >>> that reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions",
> >>> or
> >>> "Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the
> >>> stove
> >>> will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there,
> >>> some
> >>> will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While
> >>> most
> >>> people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is a
> >>> small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push"
> >>> can
> >>> go
> >>> wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>>
> >>> On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
> >>> > Dear Paul
> >>> >
> >>> > This is the STOVES list.
> >>> >
> >>> > Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
> >>> >
> >>> > I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."
> >>> >
> >>> > The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the
> >>> street
> >>> > does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across
> >>> the
> >>> > street.
> >>> >
> >>> > In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove
> >>> Customers
> >>> > with what they want.
> >>> >
> >>> > Just what do "Stove Customers" want?
> >>> >
> >>> > There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE
> >>> perfect
> >>> > stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves
> >>> that
> >>> > perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.
> >>> >
> >>> > Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:
> >>> > * Initial cost
> >>> > * Portability
> >>> > * Appearance
> >>> > * Cooking capability
> >>> > * Space heating capability
> >>> > * Fuel efficiency
> >>> > * Durability
> >>> > * Visual access to flame
> >>> > * Pride of ownership
> >>> > * Cleanliness
> >>> > * Safety
> >>> > * Smoke free living space
> >>> > * Particulate free living space
> >>> > * Etc.
> >>> >
> >>> > There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer.
> >>> There
> >>> are
> >>> > MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove
> >>> > Customers.
> >>> >
> >>> > Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some
> >>> > motivations or "drivers" include:
> >>> > * To make money
> >>> > * To feel good
> >>> > * To do good
> >>> > * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology
> >>> > * To create an economic base for community development
> >>> > * To address a health concern
> >>> > * To address an Environmental Concern
> >>> > * To further another Agenda
> >>> > * Etc.
> >>> >
> >>> > To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer
> >>> overlap,
> >>> > their mutual interests will be served.
> >>> >
> >>> > Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the
> >>> interests
> >>> > and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and
> >>> perhaps
> >>> > the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove
> >>> > Customers?
> >>> >
> >>> > What do you think?
> >>> >
> >>> > Best wishes,
> >>> >
> >>> > Kevin
> >>> >
> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson"
> >>> <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> >>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> >>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >>> > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM
> >>> > Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
> >>> NOT
> >>> > Re: ocean acidification
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Thank you Richard and Andrew,
> >>> >
> >>> > I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the
> >>> > Subject line. And therefore List readers who are fed up with the
> >>> > oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments.
> >>> By
> >>> > the way, I did NOT read those messages. But I do read whatever
> >>> Andrew
> >>> > and Richard contribute to the Listserv.
> >>> >
> >>> > Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. This relates to
> >>> > "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the
> >>> > poor will benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years or
> >>> > decades or lifetimes later.
> >>> >
> >>> > I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile
> >>> > phone development. A great example of trickle down technology coming
> >>> > rather quickly. But it reached the poor societies because business
> >>> > found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to
> >>> also
> >>> > communicate. And microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are
> >>> > unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.
> >>> >
> >>> > Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the
> >>> more
> >>> > affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of
> >>> > the pyramid (BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass
> >>> > fuel stoves into typical American and European households. But that
> >>> > approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World
> >>> Bank
> >>> > ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs
> >>> of
> >>> > the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to trickle down
> >>> > from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster)
> >>> than
> >>> > trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.
> >>> >
> >>> > If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to
> >>> this
> >>> > topic. (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually
> >>> > talking about. After all, the Subject line has at least two
> >>> > purposes: One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform
> >>> > the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)
> >>> >
> >>> > Paul with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300
> >>> pounds
> >>> > of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show
> >>> at
> >>> > Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid
> >>> > October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. I
> >>> hope
> >>> > to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in
> >>> > Illinois.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> >>> > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> >>> > Website: www.drtlud.com
> >>> >
> >>> > On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:
> >>> >> Hi Andrew.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Climate "discussions" aside, I wanted to elaborate on the
> >>> implications
> >>> >> of your observation about where" designing" is easier:
> >>> >> I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for
> >>> someone"
> >>> (
> >>> >> especially those less equipped to express their opinions and
> >>> experiences,
> >>> >> needs and resources)?... than to do it with them in their context?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that
> >>> few
> >>> >> really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether
> >>> or
> >>> >> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really
> >>> >> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply
> >>> designing a
> >>> >> technical object and selling it here?.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Richard Stanley
> >>> >> NW part of the Americas
> >>> >> ==================
> >>> >> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier
> >>> >> <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World
> >>> countries.
> >>> It
> >>> >>> is
> >>> >>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own
> >>> >>> kitchens.
> >>> >> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other
> >>> >> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,
> >>> >> important as they might be.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> AJH
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>> >>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>> >>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Stoves mailing list
> >>> >
> >>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >
> >>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>> >
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >
> >>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Stoves mailing list
> >>> >
> >>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >
> >>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>> >
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>> >
> >>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Stoves mailing list
> >>>
> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>>
> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> >>> site:
> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 02:59:39 +0000 (UTC)
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Cecil Cook <
> cec1863 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
> is NOT Re: ocean acidification
> Message-ID:
> <
> 1439760368.937148.1373252379184.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> Cecil and list
>
>
>
> ??? Thanks for more info in this and previous note.?? ?I admire the work
> of anthropologists in understanding cultures.? But not su re they are any
> better than any other group in projecting the future about any technolgy on
> which they are not expert.?? Disagree?
>
>
>
> Two follow-ups:
>
>
>
> ??? 1.? I searched unsuccessfully for some time on both the GACC and
> WorldBank sites for a copy of the?(any) stove ?questionnaire.? Can you or
> anyone send a cite or an electronic version of anything current from these
> or any similar group?
>
>
>
> ??? 2.? When I used the term "making money" - that was shorthand for
> asking about TLUD stove preferences.? I am wondering if you or anyone is
> asking questions such as this:
>
> ???? "Would you be interested in a stove that is cleaner, can be set to a
> given power level, will save on fire-tending time, and can make charcoal
> for sale - perhaps $100 per year?"?
>
> ??????????? This of course should have another such as:??
>
> ???? "The above stove can only be operated in a batch mode with special
> fuels ?- how serious?would these problems b e?
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "Cecil Cook" <cec1863 at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: "Steve Taylor" <steveastrouk at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 12:41:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
> NOT Re: ocean acidification
>
>
> Continuing my contribution:?
>
>
> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the
> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits
> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:
>
>
>
> (i.) ?better off families are buying electric rice steamers which they
> uses regularly thereby reducing the household cooking load by about 25%;
> (ii.) making limited use of the LPG stove (some families use less than 3
> kg of LPG a month) for quick cooking tasks such as reheating cold food,
> quick frying tofu and tempe, heating small amounts of water for tea, stir
> frying veggies, etc. The average use of LPG is about 6kg per month which
> only costs $.50 a kg because the government subsidizes the cost by +/- $.50
> per kg. ?The point is that households minimize their expenditure for LPG by
> deciding what stove work tasks they perform using free biomass and what
> tasks they perform using subsidized electricity and LPG.
> (iii.) heavy stove work tasks like boiling 20 litres of palm nectar down
> to 2 kgs of sugar which can take up to 3 hours is done using the
> traditional high powered stove fueled by free (collected) biomass ?
> (iv.) the introduction of the electric rice cooker and the LPG stove has
> made it possible for rural families to separate between the dirty part of
> the kitchen where the big pots and woks used for home industries are soot
> covered and a clean section or corner of the kitchen organized around the
> LPG stove and rice cooker where the pots are all scrubbed clean.
>
>
> What I observed in Yogyakarta Province is that the percentage of stove
> work performed using biomass decreases as one moves from deep rural areas
> into the peri-rural towns and peri-urban zones. ?Households adjust their
> stoves and energy carriers to their income, kitchen sizes, and the
> availability of free biomass fuel. ??
>
>
> The World Bank is now carrying out a many paged questionnaire to attempt
> to differentiate the geographical zones and economic levels of the biomass
> economy in Yogyakarta. ?It turns out to be very complex. ?Strangely, urban
> families who no longer cook with biomass in their small urban kitchens,
> continue to eat traditional foods prepared with biomass because there are
> thousands of small vendors of traditional and regional foods available
> nearby or on their doorsteps. A significant percentage of the biomass
> economy has moved out of the small urban kitchen and has been taken over by
> small vendors and restaurants in the street. ?In Yogyakarta there is a food
> vendor every 50 meters of urban corridor. ?
>
>
> The complexity of the provincial biomass economy is caused by the fact
> that there are about 10 different major biomass stove using constituencies
> which expect their stoves to perform specific functions well. ?Some food
> vendors use charcoal, firewood, LPG and electricity cooking technologies
> and energy carriers to prepare food for sale to customers. ?
>
>
> In Indonesia with its 250 000 000 people and +/- 65 million households, I
> estimate there are more than 100 million biomass stoves in use. ?These 100
> million biomass stoves are divided up among farming households who mainly
> use them for household cooking and ceremonial functions, households that
> use stoves to process crops and generate revenue, peri-rural/peri-urban
> (intermediate) households which use biomass to minimize expenditure on LPG,
> food vendors in all zones who prepare large volumes of food for sale, urban
> households that have converted entirely to a clean kitchen using
> electricity and LPG that still buys traditional foods from street vendors
> and small restaurants. Each of these different stove use constituency has
> its own preferences in terms of what stove work functions it prioritizes.
> ?In such a potentially enormous biomass stove market as Indonesia, it will
> be necessary for designer, producers and marketers to target specific stove
> using communities. ?We need to first understand what stove work functions
> they use their stoves to perform and once we know how well their
> traditional stoves perform these functions we can begin to design and
> produce stoves that out perform the baseline stove technologies.?
>
>
> Hope these remarks do not give you a headache. Anthropologists have a bad
> reputation because we tend to make solutions that work for the people more
> complex and difficult to deliver. ?It turns out that reality is normally
> more complex than we want it to be.?
>
>
> In service,
>
>
> Cecil
>
>
> In service,
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Cecil Cook < cec1863 at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear stovers,? ?
>
>
> Ron asks:?
>
>
> Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove preferences.
> Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user question that
> Cecil asked?
>
>
> The World Bank is currently conducting a many paged questionnaire to
> identify the full spectrum of stove use and stove work functions in a range
> of different stove use constituencies. My fieldwork in agricultural
> villages in Yogyakarta and Central Java clearly indicated that traditional
> self constructed multi-pothole stoves are used for the following functions:?
>
>
> 1. household cooking and water heating (for bathing and
> pasteurization) (2 pots cooking/heating ?at the same time) ,?
> 2. income generation (making palm sugar, frying chips, crackers and
> other snack foods for sale),?
> 3. drying crops such as corn, peanuts, root crops, herbs for home use
> and sale on racks above the stove,?
> 4. space heating in households that are more than 500 meter ASL,?
> 5. drying damp firewood and clothes during the rainy season,
> 6. cooking large quantities of food to feed the extended family
> (woks/pots with 10 to 20 litres of water to boil meat, cook rice, cook
> soups and vegetables) at wedding, funerals (7 observances over 3 years),
> and village gatherings (the stove needs to be big enough to deliver 10 to
> 15 kW of power to the pot),
> 7. creating a social hearth or focus for the household including
> emitting enough flickering light to cook by
>
> So the traditional stove is versatile multi-functional 'workhorse'. ??
>
>
> Interestingly, with the arrival of electricity in most villages and the
> governments roll out of 55 million free LPG stove/3 kg canister kits
> several remarkable changes in rural kitchens are taking place:?
>
>
>
> (i.)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:36 AM, < rongretlarson at comcast.net > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
>
>
> Kevin,? Paul, Steve,? AD,? List etal
>
> 1.??? I concur with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just
> received in this thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to
> emulate developed countries on consumer products.? I believe we can go
> further and say this applies to incomes.
>
> 2.? Mainly? I write to note that Kevin (appropriately) places making money
> first on the producer side of the seller-buyer lists.? But it appears
> nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer side - even though about half of the
> messages on this list relate to TLUDs, with all TLUD purveyors well aware
> that charcoal can be sold by TLUD stove? users.? Both of Kevin's lists are
> below
>
> 3.? Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove
> preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user
> question that Cecil asked?
>
> Ron
>
> From: "Kevin" < kchisholm at ca.inter.net >
> To: "Paul Anderson" < psanders at ilstu.edu >, "Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves" < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
> Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 2:27:19 AM
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this
> is????????NOT Re: ocean acidification
>
> Dear Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Anderson" < psanders at ilstu.edu >
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
> Cc: "Kevin" < kchisholm at ca.inter.net >
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
> NOT Re: ocean acidification
>
>
> Kevin and all,
>
> >
> > Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or
> > "Customer Pull"?
> Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so
> few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is
> likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".
>
> # An astute Producer will find out what the Customer REALLY wants, and will
> configure his Product Offering ?to meet the wants to the greatest extent
> possible. Stove design involves compromises, and the trick is to get as
> many
> of the wanted features as is possible, without building in "unwanted
> features", such as "too costly", "too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too
> unsafe", etc.
>
> I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at
> least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience and
> are not driven by the monetary reward.
>
> # "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad". It is "good" if the
> producer aagressively and effectively promotes a product that accurately
> addresses the Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the Producer incorporates
> features that are now wanted by the Customer.
>
> Example: ?When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances
> that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any attempts
> to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer
> Push or Push from Outside of their societies.
>
> # This is where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so important. He
> sets out to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important to
> the customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that
> best
> meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine,
> with
> new technology, better materials, better design, etc.
>
> # The 'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a stove
> that reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions", or
> "Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the
> stove
> will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there, some
> will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While most
> people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is a
> small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push" can
> go
> wrong.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD ?aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: ? psanders at ilstu.edu ? Skype: paultlud ?Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: ? www.drtlud.com
>
> On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > This is the STOVES list.
> >
> > Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
> >
> > I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."
> >
> > The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the
> street
> > does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across the
> > street.
> >
> > In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove Customers
> > with what they want.
> >
> > Just what do "Stove Customers" want?
> >
> > There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE perfect
> > stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves that
> > perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.
> >
> > Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:
> > * Initial cost
> > * Portability
> > * Appearance
> > * Cooking capability
> > * Space heating capability
> > * Fuel efficiency
> > * Durability
> > * Visual access to flame
> > * Pride of ownership
> > * Cleanliness
> > * Safety
> > * Smoke free living space
> > * Particulate free living space
> > * Etc.
> >
> > There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer. There
> are
> > MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove
> > Customers.
> >
> > Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some
> > motivations or "drivers" include:
> > * To make money
> > * To feel good
> > * To do good
> > * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology
> > * To create an economic base for community development
> > * To address a health concern
> > * To address an Environmental Concern
> > * To further another Agenda
> > * Etc.
> >
> > To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer
> overlap,
> > their mutual interests will be served.
> >
> > Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the interests
> > and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and perhaps
> > the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove
> > Customers?
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" < psanders at ilstu.edu>
> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
> > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM
> > Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT
> > Re: ocean acidification
> >
> >
> > Thank you Richard and Andrew,
> >
> > I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the
> > Subject line. ? And therefore List readers who are fed up with the
> > oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments. ?By
> > the way, I did NOT read those messages. ? But I do read whatever Andrew
> > and Richard contribute to the Listserv.
> >
> > Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. ? This relates to
> > "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the
> > poor will benefit..... ?EVENTUALLY benefit. ? Sure. ? a few years or
> > decades or lifetimes later.
> >
> > I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile
> > phone development. ?A great example of trickle down technology coming
> > rather quickly. ? But it reached the poor societies because business
> > found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to also
> > communicate. ? And microchips etc are really inexpensive. ? We are
> > unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.
> >
> > Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the more
> > affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of
> > the pyramid (BOP). ? That makes more sense than trying to get biomass
> > fuel stoves into typical American and European households. ? But that
> > approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World Bank
> > ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs of
> > the true base of the BOP. ? But at least the distance to trickle down
> > from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster) than
> > trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.
> >
> > If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to this
> > topic. ? (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually
> > talking about. ? After all, the Subject line has at least two
> > purposes: ? One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform
> > the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)
> >
> > Paul ? ? ?with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300 pounds
> > of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show at
> > Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid
> > October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. ? I hope
> > to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in
> > Illinois.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD ?aka "Dr TLUD"
> > Email: ? psanders at ilstu.edu ? Skype: paultlud ?Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > Website: ? www.drtlud.com
> >
> > On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:
> >> Hi Andrew.
> >>
> >> Climate "discussions" aside, ? I wanted to elaborate on the implications
> >> of your observation about where" designing" is easier:
> >> ? I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for someone" (
> >> especially those less equipped to express their opinions and
> experiences,
> >> needs and resources)?... than to do it with them in their context?
> >>
> >> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that few
> >> really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether or
> >> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really
> >> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply designing
> a
> >> technical object and selling it here?.
> >>
> >> Richard Stanley
> >> NW part of the Americas
> >> ==================
> >> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier
> >> < paul.olivier at esrla.com > wrote:
> >>
> >>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World countries.
> It
> >>> is
> >>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own
> >>> kitchens.
> >> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other
> >> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,
> >> important as they might be.
> >>
> >> AJH
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> </blockquote>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, ?News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130708/61c5ca9e/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2013 23:41:21 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Fred Colgan <fred at instove.org>, Bob Fairchild
> <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Lanny Henson's School Lunch Cooker #2
> Message-ID: <51DA42F1.5030505 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Lanny, and all Stovers,
>
> Excellent presentation of an fine contribution to address the issues of
> institutional-size cookers.
>
> Institutional stoves are one of the focal topics at this year's
> Aprovecho Stove Camp, under the leadership of Fred Colgan and his
> InStove team. This video will for sure be included in the content for
> all participants to see and discuss. The video gives numbers and shows
> alternatives and will raise questions for discussions.
>
> I ask Mike and Dean at Aprovecho to please forward this message to all
> who have registered for the Stove Camp (because some might not be
> subscribed to the Stoves Listserv).
>
> Many questions and comments, but just 2 here:
>
> 1. Comment: 40 quarts are essentially 40 liters. InStove has 60 liter
> and 100 liter products. There are also 200 liter and larger
> institutional stoves. How we as Stove designers address these size
> issues will be a great discussion at Stove Camp (and on the Stove
> Listserv.)
>
> 2. Question/request: Lanny, please provide more info about how your
> design does not have primary air entering below and therefore does not
> have a grate (if I understood correctly from the video). And how is
> the created charcoal removed?
>
> To all: THIS type of stove design and testing content is what the
> Stoves Listserv is truly about.
>
> Paul (Still in Uganda, so slightly out of time, but I will be at
> Stove Camp with additional institutional stove content.)
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 7/7/2013 5:36 PM, Lanny Henson wrote:
> >
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2U4dY5zjJA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUmRH3cm5dzmsfvERZHEIP7Q
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is my commercial duty wood fired cooking stove the ?School Lunch
> > Cooker? prototype #2
> >
> > I designed this stove to cook the larger quantities necessary for
> > school lunch programs in developing areas like Haiti
> >
> > It heats a 40 quart or smaller pot, and a 22? pan, and I am working on
> > a cook top adapter for multiple pots.
> >
> > It is sized for commercial and institutional applications.
> >
> > This stove will pasteurize water, heat bath, laundry and kitchen
> > water, and you can do laundry and dishes in the 40 quart pot.
> >
> > This cooker is user friendly, is quick to fire and easy to use. It is
> > very efficient, very functional and very durable. It burns a variety
> > of wood or charcoal. It performs a variety of cooking task, and cooks
> > outside in all weather,. It is very portable and is somewhat
> > controllable.
> >
> > This stove is less hassle than portable propane fired stoves
> > considering the time and expense to refill tanks.
> >
> > I have two more videos coming soon, one is of a newer prototype and I
> > will have some information about the unique TLC ?top lit combustor?
> > burner.
> >
> > Lanny Henson
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 10:37:35 -0700
> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
> To: <crispinpigott at gmail.com>, "'Discussion of biomass cooking
> stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
> Message-ID: <00fa01ce7c01$d5ef14b0$81cd3e10$@compostlab.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Crispin,
>
> I think this does pertain to 'stoves' in regard to biochars produced and
> use
> in ag related additives and water treatment because IMO people put much too
> much emphasis in a pH measurement. It means little when one looks at how
> the
> value is being used. The pH value of biochars, soil and water mean little
> (except for what it is at that moment) because when a pH is determined it
> is
> what's needed to change that pH to what one wants or what that pH has
> regarding potential of doing is the info we really want. So the right pH we
> walk away happy but the wrong pH and we need a lot more info to make
> corrections.
>
> To measure the pH of the ocean to 0.1 pH units seems impossible. Not sure
> I
> could do it in the lab using our 4 pH meters and all using the same buffers
> to calibrate. That because the pH constantly drifts with solubility of
> gases, changes in microbial activity, temperature differences and pH
> electrode activity etc. And we think we can measure the pH of the ocean
> with
> all the currents, planktons, temperature variations, depth and turnovers
> etc
> to a 0.02 units for an accurate 0.1 value?!! And then we have CO2 being
> taken up by plants and chemical activity and released in varying stages -
> in
> an ocean of water....
>
> Like climate change and glaciers I think a better indicator would be shell
> destruction as mentioned in that excellent video Peter attached. Or a
> measure of alkalinity (titrating to pH 4.5) or, perhaps the aggressive
> index, ryzner indix, langlier index that includes many other factors
> placing
> water between a scale of aggressive at one end and scale forming at the
> other. Then people use the pH reading to determine the change in hydrogen
> concentration? When there are so many hydrogen sinks and release in many
> configurations. But I am sure at a pH of 8.3 it will take up a lot of the
> CO2 we produce - good for land but not for the oceans.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langelier_Saturation_Index#Langelier_Saturation
> _Index_.28LSI.29
> http://www.krwa.org/docs/Aggressive%20Index%20Formula.pdf
> http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/langelier/index/langelier.htm
> http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/ryznar/index/ryznar.htm
>
> I have never used these on ocean water but domestic water we determine if
> the water is aggressive and will eat the pipes OR if the water is scale
> forming and will place a layer of calcium carbonate coating protecting the
> pipe. The calcium carbonate is the same make-up as shells so should predict
> the same I would think. We go for slightly scale forming so to protect
> pipes but not fill them up with lime deposits.
>
> The pH of Biochar means nothing unless we give it a lime equivalent
> (carbonate as CaCO3) and/or neutralizing value (back titrate an acid to pH
> 8.3 as CaCO3) to relate an application rate to liming and predict what it
> will do to the soil.
>
> As for the calculations; I was looking for a paper I wrote explaining this
> to clients to attach to this e-mail but it might be at home or lost as it
> was 30+ years ago.
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:26 AM
> To: Stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>
> Dear Frank
>
> I want to get the math of this correct. The claim is that the oceans have
> changed pH from 8.2 to 8.1, that this is (at least in part or totally)
> caused by human emissions of CO2, right? And further that this represents
> a
> '30% increase in acidity'.
>
> The method described asserts that it is a logarithmic scale and that the
> 30%
> and the term 'acidity' are appropriate.
>
> I would like to put this in perspective. If the 'acidity' rose 15,800% then
> the oceans would be Neutral, neither acidic nor alkaline using conventional
> terminology.
>
> As oceans vary from about 8.4 to 7.8 that is a natural variation of '400%',
> using the same definition as is applied in the case of '30%'.
>
> In the case of rain, which has a CO2 content of over 10,000 ppm it is
> '50,000% more acidic' than ocean water at pH 8.2. In fact rain really is
> acidic.
>
> Seems to me that if '30%' is catastrophic the EPA should ban rainfall with
> immediate effect. It is obviously wrecking the ocean.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> >From BB9900
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Frank Shields" <frank at compostlab.com>
> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 10:29:22
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>
> This is a very good topic and related to Stoves to the point of noting the
> difference of a measure of Biochar pH value and alkalinity value. The pH is
> really not that important as many think it is. It's the alkalinity that is
> important. Having a water with a pH of 8.3 takes little acid to lower the
> pH
> but toss in a chunk of lime and the pH is still 8.3 but you will need to
> add
> acid until all the lime is dissolved before the pH goes down. So pH is just
> a reading. Alkalinity (or neutralizing value) is a measure of the amount of
> buffering holding that pH. We report this as CaCO3 equivalent units so it
> can be compared to adding limestone to a soil. We boil a Biochar sample in
> 100 mls of 0.5N HCl to dissolve all the carbonates and oxides in the sample
> then back titrate using NaOH to determine the amount buffering (or
> neutralizing value) the sample has. Much more useful.
>
> Frank
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank Shields
>
> BioChar Division
> Control Laboratories, Inc.
> 42 Hangar Way
> Watsonville, CE 95076
>
> (831) 724-5422 tel
> (81) 724-3188 fax
> frank at biocharlab.com
> www.controllabs.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> ajheggie at gmail.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 11:47 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] on ocean acidification
>
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 23:21:20 -0600,Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy
> Design Ltd <mark at lowenergydesign.com> wrote:
>
> >I wouldn't normally want to post off-topic, but I think it is necessary
> >that an error be corrected before this thread is put to sleep.
>
> Mark I'm happy with your correction explaining pH. As we generally do use
> pH
> to denote acidity rather than hydrogen ions I think it is misleading to
> then
> say a 30% increase in hydrogen ion activity equates to a 30% change in
> acidity.
>
> I think change in ocean ecology due to this small change in pH is a very
> serious concern but please all of you take the discussion elsewhere and
> stick to stove issues.
>
> AJH
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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> .org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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> .org
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> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 35, Issue 7
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