[Stoves] Hand-makng small roundish briquettes:
Art Donnelly
art.donnelly at seachar.org
Mon Jul 29 21:56:54 CDT 2013
Sorry here are the photos. Hopefully this works.
Art
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>wrote:
> Hi Ron,
>
> Saturday morning at Aprovecho the t*rdquettes still seemed to have some
> moisture. So, I brought them home and let them dry in the sun until this
> afternoon. (Mon. 29th)
> I filled an 8" diameter combustion chamber on a "test-bed" TLUD, to 8" (
> sorry no scales today). This is a N.D. stove. I used pine cones soaked in
> alcohol as an tinder with dry twigs as kindling. I got a beautiful
> smokeless start and a steady yellow orange flame for 30 minutes. I liked my
> turn down with these. I wet quenched the briquets as soon as the flame
> went blue. There was little ash and the resulting carbonized t*rdquettes(can you give us a pronunciation guide for that) held together well and
> were uniformly charred to the center.
>
> I liked these much better than the round "green" briquettes with the
> center hole or the "sticks". I also licked your complete lack of
> briquetting equipment. You are a machine.
>
> I have attached a zip file with photos.
> my best,
> Art D.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Cajun Rocket Pot (Andreatta, Dale A.)
>> 2. Re: Cajun Rocket Pot (Tom Miles)
>> 3. Kirk Harris' new TLUD contributions (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>> 4. Re: Pot shells / Fin shells (Lanny Henson)
>> 5. Re: Pot shells / Fin shells (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> 6. Re: Pot shells / Fin shells (Lanny Henson)
>> 7. Re: Pot shells / Fin shells (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> 8. pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets) (Paul Olivier)
>> 9. Vat Cooke / Pot shells / Fin shells (Lanny Henson)
>> 10. Re: pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets) (Lanny Henson)
>> 11. Re: pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets) (Paul Olivier)
>> 12. pellets in an urban setting (Paul Olivier)
>> 13. Re: Cajun Rocket Pot (Todd Albi)
>> 14. Re: Cajun Rocket Pot (Jonathan P Gill)
>> 15. Re: Hand-makng small roundish briquettes: (Richard Stanley)
>> 16. Re: Hand-makng small roundish briquettes: (Richard Stanley)
>> 17. Re: pellets in an urban setting (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:11:51 -0400
>> From: "Andreatta, Dale A." <dandreatta at sealimited.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <62BD23D01AD1464FAF784719D5E63693012506A5 at colexch02.sealimited.local>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I like it!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> As some of you know, I spent a lot of time around 2007-2008 working on
>> finned pots, and never really got them to work well. I didn't try this
>> type of "pin fin" design because I couldn't figure out how to make a
>> prototype.
>>
>>
>>
>> With this pin fin design (that's what mechanical engineers call this
>> shape of fin) you increase the heat transfer area, but unlike the fins I
>> worked with, you don't significantly change the flow of the gas. You
>> get high convective heat transfer coefficients. Hot gases impinging on
>> a surface (hitting the surface from a perpendicular direction) usually
>> gives better heat transfer than hot gases flowing parallel to a surface.
>> The basic tests that have been done prove this, at least with industrial
>> fuel flames.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that with a sooty flame, you could use a brush to scrape off
>> most of the soot, and what you don't get this time you can get next
>> time. Thin layers of soot wouldn't have much effect. Perhaps arranging
>> the fins in rows rather than circular arrays would make them easier to
>> clean quickly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that emissions per unit of time will increase, since you are
>> quenching the flame more quickly at the bottom of the pot and stopping
>> the reactions that would otherwise burn up some of particles and CO.
>> The effect might be small or large. On the other hand, if the time to
>> boil is greatly reduced, the total emissions might be a lot less.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that you could make a pot out of cast aluminum with the fins
>> cast in place. You could use tapered pins to save material and improve
>> castability. You could probably also use sophisticated welding
>> techniques, as has been described, or possibly furnace brazing
>> techniques.
>>
>>
>>
>> The material of the pot doesn't make much difference. Since all metals
>> are much better conductors of heat than gases, it doesn't matter whether
>> the metal is much better at conducting (stainless steel) or much much
>> better at conducting (aluminum). It would mostly then be a cost and
>> manufacturing issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fins must be bonded (welded, brazed, soldered, cast in place) to the
>> pot itself, otherwise there is too much resistance to heat transfer
>> across the interface.
>>
>>
>>
>> What to do next? Where does one get one? If I can get a sample I could
>> test it out on a variety of stoves, rocket, charcoal, open fire,
>> gasifier, LPG, fire-in-a-bucket, etc. I could prepare a quick report by
>> the next ETHOS time. Or, someone who does experimental work full time,
>> such as Apro or many other labs, could do a better job in less time.
>> What I'm saying is that this is a very exciting development, that could
>> make a huge difference in what we do. We should pursue this quickly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dale Andreatta, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of Dean Still
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:36 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot/ capacitive discharge stud weldie
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Lanny,
>>
>>
>>
>> We tested a couple of pots with fins but the space between the fins
>> clogged up quickly with soot, a good insulator.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding?
>>
>>
>> Yes I have a stud welder but I did not realize it would weld dissimilar
>> metals especially aluminum to anything else.
>>
>> Stud welding is very finicky and will leave a blemish on the opposite
>> side of thin metal.
>>
>> When a stud weld fails you have to grind the surface to clean it up
>> before rewelding.. How are you going to do that if it is between the
>> other studs?
>>
>> Attaching studs, fins or anything to a pot is going to be problematic,
>> but attaching something to the pot holder may be practical. The heat
>> transfer may not be as good as having something attached to the pot but
>> it could possibly improve the heat transfer.
>>
>> Lanny Henson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>>
>>
>>
>> [Default] On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:48:02 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>> <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> I like creative people and take no pleasure criticizing their work but
>> it is going to be too expensive and difficult to make with all the pegs.
>>
>>
>> Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding? This would
>> allow welding of dissimilar metals to the pot in any pattern. I have
>> no idea of costs.
>>
>> Have you done heat transfer tests with your 4mm aluminium pot compared
>> with the thinner stainless one? Stainless is a notoriously poor
>> conductor of heat and theoretically would need to be just under a
>> tenth of the thickness of aluminium for the same conductivity, but I
>> do use stainless pots at home.
>>
>> Finally can you explain the difference between a vat and a pot?
>>
>> Paul I do consider this to be important because biomass stoves have an
>> inherent problem with heat transfer compared with natural gas or LPG
>> so improvements in heat exchange will have high benefits.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>>
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:26:31 -0700
>> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> Message-ID: <000601ce8bbf$fbdf68a0$f39e39e0$@trmiles.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Is a TLUD likely to have less soot buildup on fins?
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Andreatta, Dale A.
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:12 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>>
>>
>>
>> I like it!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> As some of you know, I spent a lot of time around 2007-2008 working on
>> finned pots, and never really got them to work well. I didn't try this
>> type
>> of "pin fin" design because I couldn't figure out how to make a prototype.
>>
>>
>>
>> With this pin fin design (that's what mechanical engineers call this shape
>> of fin) you increase the heat transfer area, but unlike the fins I worked
>> with, you don't significantly change the flow of the gas. You get high
>> convective heat transfer coefficients. Hot gases impinging on a surface
>> (hitting the surface from a perpendicular direction) usually gives better
>> heat transfer than hot gases flowing parallel to a surface. The basic
>> tests
>> that have been done prove this, at least with industrial fuel flames.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that with a sooty flame, you could use a brush to scrape off most
>> of the soot, and what you don't get this time you can get next time. Thin
>> layers of soot wouldn't have much effect. Perhaps arranging the fins in
>> rows rather than circular arrays would make them easier to clean quickly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that emissions per unit of time will increase, since you are
>> quenching the flame more quickly at the bottom of the pot and stopping the
>> reactions that would otherwise burn up some of particles and CO. The
>> effect
>> might be small or large. On the other hand, if the time to boil is
>> greatly
>> reduced, the total emissions might be a lot less.
>>
>>
>>
>> I expect that you could make a pot out of cast aluminum with the fins cast
>> in place. You could use tapered pins to save material and improve
>> castability. You could probably also use sophisticated welding
>> techniques,
>> as has been described, or possibly furnace brazing techniques.
>>
>>
>>
>> The material of the pot doesn't make much difference. Since all metals
>> are
>> much better conductors of heat than gases, it doesn't matter whether the
>> metal is much better at conducting (stainless steel) or much much better
>> at
>> conducting (aluminum). It would mostly then be a cost and manufacturing
>> issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fins must be bonded (welded, brazed, soldered, cast in place) to the
>> pot
>> itself, otherwise there is too much resistance to heat transfer across the
>> interface.
>>
>>
>>
>> What to do next? Where does one get one? If I can get a sample I could
>> test it out on a variety of stoves, rocket, charcoal, open fire, gasifier,
>> LPG, fire-in-a-bucket, etc. I could prepare a quick report by the next
>> ETHOS time. Or, someone who does experimental work full time, such as
>> Apro
>> or many other labs, could do a better job in less time. What I'm saying
>> is
>> that this is a very exciting development, that could make a huge
>> difference
>> in what we do. We should pursue this quickly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dale Andreatta, Ph.D., P.E.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Dean Still
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:36 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot/ capacitive discharge stud weldie
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Lanny,
>>
>>
>>
>> We tested a couple of pots with fins but the space between the fins
>> clogged
>> up quickly with soot, a good insulator.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding?
>>
>>
>> Yes I have a stud welder but I did not realize it would weld dissimilar
>> metals especially aluminum to anything else.
>>
>> Stud welding is very finicky and will leave a blemish on the opposite side
>> of thin metal.
>>
>> When a stud weld fails you have to grind the surface to clean it up before
>> rewelding.. How are you going to do that if it is between the other studs?
>>
>> Attaching studs, fins or anything to a pot is going to be problematic, but
>> attaching something to the pot holder may be practical. The heat transfer
>> may not be as good as having something attached to the pot but it could
>> possibly improve the heat transfer.
>>
>> Lanny Henson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>>
>> [Default] On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:48:02 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>> <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> I like creative people and take no pleasure criticizing their work but it
>> is
>> going to be too expensive and difficult to make with all the pegs.
>>
>>
>> Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding? This would
>> allow welding of dissimilar metals to the pot in any pattern. I have
>> no idea of costs.
>>
>> Have you done heat transfer tests with your 4mm aluminium pot compared
>> with the thinner stainless one? Stainless is a notoriously poor
>> conductor of heat and theoretically would need to be just under a
>> tenth of the thickness of aluminium for the same conductivity, but I
>> do use stainless pots at home.
>>
>> Finally can you explain the difference between a vat and a pot?
>>
>> Paul I do consider this to be important because biomass stoves have an
>> inherent problem with heat transfer compared with natural gas or LPG
>> so improvements in heat exchange will have high benefits.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
>> .org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:56:32 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Cc: kgharris at sonic.net
>> Subject: [Stoves] Kirk Harris' new TLUD contributions
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> 490854862.1605379.1375037792893.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> List:
>>
>> In my last message: I said: " I watched the testing of an interesting
>> stove designed by Kirk Harris (from La Rosa (?) CA. This was much larger
>> version of a camping stove he brought. Good results on abbreviated testing.
>> I'll write a separate report on this design as it had several features I
>> have not seen elsewhere. "
>>
>> #1 was his means of controlling primary air: a paper clip of the large
>> spring type attached to a circumferential band near the bottom. Had a
>> single large "square" hole in the band for his camping stove (that allowed
>> for adding fuel in a rocket manner, if needed). In the larger, impromptu
>> verson he had only three equally spaced primary air holes. It seemed very
>> easy to squeeze the paper clip to open the strap enough to rotate it for
>> changing primary air. I am not sure how the strap was attached to the clip
>> - maybe just two right angle bends in the loop ends.
>>
>> #2 was his use of "rock wool" for insulation. This prevented use of the
>> gap between inner and outer cylinders for preheating secondary air, but he
>> believes the tradeoff favors the added insulation. Only TLUD I have seen
>> with this approach. Should be possible to prove one way or another with
>> some modeling and or testng.. He still has some secondary air preheating as
>> the secondary enters the combustion region. I heard one stove expert talk
>> aganst this idea - so it needs more trials.
>>
>> #3 was use of swirl achieved by the entry angle of the secondary air.
>> Many TLUDs with this swirl, but not at this stove camp.
>>
>> #4 was use of a rockwool (?) "stove rope" for sealing the top surface.
>> Like #2, this was from a "Bucks" stove store.
>>
>> #5 was use of cans mostly throughout (had a small can to get extra draft)
>> but used a "coil" of stainless steel (not a tin can) for the innermost
>> surface of the camping stove to have better lifetime. Not sure on the
>> larger unit, where everything was scrounged from Aprovecho stock.
>>
>> #6. As noted in #1, he could add fuel from the bottom with the camp
>> stove. Not many (if any) TLUDs doing this. Reason in part that camping
>> stoves needn't save char .
>>
>> $7 This Is the big one:- I have never seen in any other TLUD. Kirk had a
>> third set of air holes that he called "intermediate" - that all pointed (by
>> the bending of the slits in the stainless) downward. They were located
>> slightly below the secondary air holes of #3. They were designed to burn up
>> the char - not what I want for TLUDs, but quite appropriate for camping
>> stoves.
>> In most TLUDs that burn the char, the primary air supply is cranked wide
>> open to prevent smoking; the problem is the heat release is far from the
>> pot.. KirK does the opposite, mostly closing the (former) primary air
>> holes. He finds a bright flame from the top combustion of the produced char
>> .
>> In the single run I saw, there was very little char left.
>> We agreed that the TLUD-world needs a better handle on pressure
>> differences within any TLUD .
>>
>> Other - Kirk showed me a 2-page writeup, with some of the above. All in
>> all, Kirk has thought a lot of this through very well - for those who want
>> little char. There are still several lessons for those of us who want the
>> cahr.
>>
>> Ron
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:36:33 -0400
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>> Message-ID: <7EDB10E567A54294AFEF49E9ECAA8E09 at HP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Well I had 186 LB of water and rice, the rice was 50 lb.
>>
>> Rice has a specific heat capacity of about .33 which is about the same as
>> 16.5 of water so deduct 33.5 from 186 for a mass of about 152.5 lb water
>> equivalent.
>>
>> I started with 15 LB. of wood and had 2.95 LB. left over = 12.05 LB. of
>> wood used, and there was 1.5 LB. of charcoal left.
>>
>> The simmer time was about 30 min.
>>
>> The wrapper is 60" x and the vat is 48" long . I estimate the water was
>> contacting about 36" of the 60" wrapper so the contact area was about 12
>> sq. ft.
>>
>> Does that give you the numbers you need?
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>> Dear Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if you can help me out with more numbers. The comparison
>> between a trough with ends and a pot is interesting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you provide some water boiling volumes (initial) and mass of fuel
>> burned? To check heat transfer efficiency the char mass will be needed. To
>> check the system efficiency (fuel efficiency) the char should be ignored in
>> most cases. What I would like to do is calculate the two and see if the
>> surface area of the pot and vat are important considerations. They should
>> be, but as I often say, never assume anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best to check.
>>
>>
>>
>> The effective heating area of the vat might be the sheet length x
>> Sin(45) x Sheet width, or it may be sheet length x width. If the heat
>> transfer efficiency per sq cm is the same, then the matter will soon be
>> settled with a calculator.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lanny Henson
>> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 12:13 AM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>>
>> Fins/ pegs/ pot shells/ rocket pots.
>>
>> If you are going to use fins they should be attached to a pot skirt
>> that fits snug and stays on the pot until it needs to be cleaned. This
>> keeps the soot if any contained and away from the cook.
>>
>> Instead of a fin shell I am now using a "pot shell" that totally
>> encloses the pot. The pot shell has a top tray that can be easily slid back
>> for easy access to the pot. This is actually easier that removing a lid and
>> another benefit with total enclosure is the pot is heated from the top as
>> well as the sides and bottom.
>>
>> The top tray can also dry wood and warm food items.
>>
>> Another benefit of the pot shell is that it makes cooking in the rain
>> possible.
>>
>> The construction is very simple and it can be built from most any
>> material that is non combustible.
>>
>> A section of drum fits over a 40 qt sauce pot or a 60 qt stock pot. The
>> pot handles may have to be bent in a little or the pot shell can be
>> slightly oval to fit over the handles.
>>
>> A pot shell requires a flat top stove body or a burner under a flat
>> surface.
>>
>> I believe the pot shell is the biggest bang for the buck to improve a
>> stoves performance. They are cheep and easy to build. They add draft
>> without allowing too much, they capture the heat, and allow cooking outdoor
>> in the rain.
>>
>> If the pot shell design helps your stove, run with it, and that goes
>> for everyone.
>>
>> I will have a video later today showing its use
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
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>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 17:14:38 -0400
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>> Message-ID: <00dd01ce8bd7$7876bc80$69643580$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem is the missing figure is the mass of fuel when the pot as
>> boiled
>> so I can't get an efficiency without making some (big) guesses.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the energy needed to simmer the rice for 30 minutes is 20% of the
>> boiling
>> energy, the system efficiency (which is the analogy of fuel efficiency) is
>> 34%, conditioned on the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> If the charcoal remaining is useable in the next fire, it can be treated
>> as
>> 'unused fuel'. If you want an accurate figure, you would have to use this
>> duel in a new fire and get the performance so that the amount of char
>> remaining is the same as what you put in during that burn.
>>
>>
>>
>> The 34% figure assumes the char is not burnable in the next fire.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it is (all of it) the system efficiency is 51% based on the simmering
>> assumption.
>>
>>
>>
>> It should be remembered that the thermal efficiency should consider the
>> thermal mass of the pot (mass x specific x change in temperature. If it
>> does, the reported figure will be higher.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Lanny Henson
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:37 PM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>>
>> Well I had 186 LB of water and rice, the rice was 50 lb.
>>
>> Rice has a specific heat capacity of about .33 which is about the same as
>> 16.5 of water so deduct 33.5 from 186 for a mass of about 152.5 lb water
>> equivalent.
>>
>> I started with 15 LB. of wood and had 2.95 LB. left over = 12.05 LB. of
>> wood
>> used, and there was 1.5 LB. of charcoal left.
>>
>> The simmer time was about 30 min.
>>
>> The wrapper is 60" x and the vat is 48" long . I estimate the water was
>> contacting about 36" of the 60" wrapper so the contact area was about 12
>> sq.
>> ft.
>>
>> Does that give you the numbers you need?
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130728/e0a4a97e/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:47 -0400
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>> Message-ID: <03F43E7BE0BE4ACABFB8421E6BC8A70E at HP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Crispin,
>> I do not have that information. I did that 3 years ago.
>> Also I did not use my best burner.
>> I need to get back to that design it has potential.
>> Lanny
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>> Dear Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem is the missing figure is the mass of fuel when the pot as
>> boiled so I can't get an efficiency without making some (big) guesses.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the energy needed to simmer the rice for 30 minutes is 20% of the
>> boiling energy, the system efficiency (which is the analogy of fuel
>> efficiency) is 34%, conditioned on the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> If the charcoal remaining is useable in the next fire, it can be
>> treated as 'unused fuel'. If you want an accurate figure, you would have to
>> use this duel in a new fire and get the performance so that the amount of
>> char remaining is the same as what you put in during that burn.
>>
>>
>>
>> The 34% figure assumes the char is not burnable in the next fire.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it is (all of it) the system efficiency is 51% based on the
>> simmering assumption.
>>
>>
>>
>> It should be remembered that the thermal efficiency should consider the
>> thermal mass of the pot (mass x specific x change in temperature. If it
>> does, the reported figure will be higher.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
>> Behalf Of Lanny Henson
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 3:37 PM
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>>
>> Well I had 186 LB of water and rice, the rice was 50 lb.
>>
>> Rice has a specific heat capacity of about .33 which is about the same
>> as 16.5 of water so deduct 33.5 from 186 for a mass of about 152.5 lb water
>> equivalent.
>>
>> I started with 15 LB. of wood and had 2.95 LB. left over = 12.05 LB. of
>> wood used, and there was 1.5 LB. of charcoal left.
>>
>> The simmer time was about 30 min.
>>
>> The wrapper is 60" x and the vat is 48" long . I estimate the water was
>> contacting about 36" of the 60" wrapper so the contact area was about 12
>> sq. ft.
>>
>> Does that give you the numbers you need?
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 22:56:40 +0000
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <324725998-1375052206-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418506894- at b27.c10.bise6.blackberry
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> I would be interested in reports on it. The char production was a quite
>> high so you might work on that aspect. In a fuel efficiency calculation
>> char is a 'mechanical loss'.
>>
>> I have been having discussions on the various 'efficiencies' in Mongolia
>> and China in the last couple weeks. We need to nail these down with
>> validated theoretical explanations so different test results can be
>> translated in parallel.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>> From BB9900
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:47
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 06:06:55 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets)
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAOreFvaECS=1nKusZPAm4KU4_EyxoGFHBZaXYetzF=
>> 11oUL84A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> In a more user-friendly format:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss9lRB4SpOk
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qDsbBO9p8
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130729/4749bc45/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:11:23 -0400
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> To: <crispinpigott at gmail.com>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Vat Cooke / Pot shells / Fin shells
>> Message-ID: <052F4A0E2FB74F499FF59D9F6BB8D6DE at HP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Crispin,
>> Were you able to view the video?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntaqwZtq30g
>> The left over charcoal had some nice large very usable pieces left over to
>> have come from a cooking stove. I consider this a credit not a loss.
>> My new TLC burner "top lit Combustor" does consume more of the charcoal.
>> The new burner is scalable so I will us it in the next vat cooker
>> prototype.
>> Here is the old burner I used. The roaring sound is from the natural draft
>> mixing in the burner not from a fan or the wind.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJvnJEhHAXY
>> Lanny
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "Stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 6:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>>
>>
>> >I would be interested in reports on it. The char production was a quite
>> >high so you might work on that aspect. In a fuel efficiency calculation
>> >char is a 'mechanical loss'.
>> >
>> > I have been having discussions on the various 'efficiencies' in Mongolia
>> > and China in the last couple weeks. We need to nail these down with
>> > validated theoretical explanations so different test results can be
>> > translated in parallel.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> > From BB9900
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> > Sender: "Stoves" <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:47
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Pot shells / Fin shells
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:13:46 -0400
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets)
>> Message-ID: <1CEABD83642745448CC06C3BE6D4545E at HP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Some very nice blue flames!!
>> The second video is set to "private viewing"
>> Lanny
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Olivier
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:06 PM
>> Subject: [Stoves] pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets)
>>
>>
>> In a more user-friendly format:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss9lRB4SpOk
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qDsbBO9p8
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130728/2cabccf2/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:44:07 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets)
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAOreFvZoCnUBvjPtWXQn_uu4EdWv2Hs+ds0-UM9cx_66S_uYZA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Lenny,
>>
>> Can you now view the second video?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> > Some very nice blue flames!!
>> > The second video is set to "private viewing"
>> > Lanny
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:06 PM
>> > *Subject:* [Stoves] pellet gasifier (rice hull pellets)
>> >
>> > In a more user-friendly format:
>> >
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss9lRB4SpOk
>> >
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qDsbBO9p8
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> > Paul Olivier
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130729/d3639b13/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:06:32 +0700
>> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] pellets in an urban setting
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAOreFvbAs23t4LswAcaOj4rV6MnorU8eUOpE7q0yUgg_=
>> 5QfsA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I am getting excited about the use of pellets. In an urban setting in a
>> developing country such as Vietnam, a pellet gasifier should be a lot more
>> socially acceptable than a loose biomass gasifier.
>>
>> Since pellets can be as much as 8 to 10 times more dense than loose
>> biomass, the reactor can be much smaller. A net reactor height of only 8
>> inches is all that is needed to give a burn time of up to 90 minutes.
>> Since
>> the unit is small, it is lightweight. The reactor weight is but 1.2 kg.
>> It
>> is easy to handle. With such a small reactor, the manufacturing cost drops
>> considerably. This means that the most heat-resistant and non-corrosive
>> stainless steels become affordable. This adds years to the life of the
>> unit. This also means that the unit looks good and takes on the appearance
>> of a high-end kitchen utensil. If the unit does not look good, it will be
>> hard to sell.
>>
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/IMG_1571.JPG
>>
>> Pellets can be more cheaply transported into urban areas than loose
>> biomass. Dealing with loose biomass can often be dusty and messy. The
>> storage of pellets in a kitchen takes up much less space than the storage
>> of loose biomass. With pellets there should be a lot less emissions of
>> particulates.
>>
>> Biochar pellets are easier to quantify than loose biochar. A measurement
>> of
>> biochar volume is all that is needed. There is only a small reduction in
>> volume as when a pellet is transformed into biochar.
>>
>> The flame put out by a pellet gasifier is rich and intense throughout the
>> burn:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qDsbBO9p8
>> The flame does not turn ethereal.
>>
>> It is true that pellets cost more than loose biomass. But pellets are
>> cheaper to transport into a city than loose biomass, and the biochar
>> produced from pellets has a higher value in Vietnam than the original
>> pellets. I foresee the possibility of an exchange program where pellets
>> are
>> supplied free-of-charge in exchange for the biochar produced from these
>> pellets.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130729/ea1fd885/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:42:33 -0700
>> From: Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAE3shSP+wS41dxEPeywE+VOt=
>> pYgM3VwDLy0Ux7XOkYre-_-wQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Subject: Cajun Rocket Pot / TLUD Soot
>>
>> Soot is an end product on all pots used on biomass stoves with or without
>> fins or skirts. Heat transfer is increased by adding more surface area to
>> cooking pots with dowels, finned ribs, corrugated ribs, rows of fins or
>> full skirted pots as discussed. Steel woks with lamented cast iron bases
>> with fins have been available in China for quite sometime. We have both
>> in
>> our SilverFire showroom. They are designed specifically for biomass.
>> Finned pots specific for LPG have also been available for a number of
>> years.
>>
>> The Chinese Enron turbo pots have been marketed in the USA for several
>> years (www.turbopot.com). Rebates for Enron finned pots are available
>> from utility companies in the USA for LPG savings. The LPG fin design on
>> Turbo pots differ significantly from the biomass design. Narrow LPG
>> finned
>> pot channels clog with soot and the end result is that the soot negates
>> heat transfer, if used with biomass. Fin designs for biomass cooking are
>> significantly wider and work well. Time to boil is significantly reduced.
>>
>> The ease of cleaning and product acceptance is also important, as Dale
>> touched upon. We had early prototypes of both fin pot & skirted pots
>> fabricated in 2008. I was not a proponent of the Aprovecho fin pot. It
>> made no sense for the end user. The early design had fins that extended
>> from the base and up the sidewalls of the pot. We would have had to
>> provide tetanus shots for end users, had that design ever reached the
>> market. The exterior design was unacceptable. Cleaning or handling the
>> pot was a handling hazard.
>>
>> Our production pot we introduced to the introduced to the market was the
>> skirted pot. It cut approximately 5 minutes to time to boil in our early
>> WBT work. I brought the skirted pot to market though, for the important
>> fact that we designed the skirt to protrude below the cast iron cook top.
>> This important design feature reduced the chance of the pot sliding off
>> the
>> stove to prevent burning the cook or children. Since soot did not
>> accumulate on the exterior skirt, it also meant less cleaning for the
>> cook,
>> compared to the finned pot. The skirted pot was more acceptable than our
>> fin pot design. Combining a skirt and fins would provide even greater
>> heat
>> transfer. A well-designed pot must be easy to clean.
>>
>> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Is a TLUD likely to have less soot buildup on fins?****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Tom****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On
>> > Behalf Of *Andreatta, Dale A.
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:12 AM
>> >
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > I like it!!!****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > As some of you know, I spent a lot of time around 2007-2008 working on
>> > finned pots, and never really got them to work well. I didn?t try this
>> > type of ?pin fin? design because I couldn?t figure out how to make a
>> > prototype. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > With this pin fin design (that?s what mechanical engineers call this
>> shape
>> > of fin) you increase the heat transfer area, but unlike the fins I
>> worked
>> > with, you don?t significantly change the flow of the gas. You get high
>> > convective heat transfer coefficients. Hot gases impinging on a surface
>> > (hitting the surface from a perpendicular direction) usually gives
>> better
>> > heat transfer than hot gases flowing parallel to a surface. The basic
>> > tests that have been done prove this, at least with industrial fuel
>> > flames. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > I expect that with a sooty flame, you could use a brush to scrape off
>> most
>> > of the soot, and what you don?t get this time you can get next time.
>> Thin
>> > layers of soot wouldn?t have much effect. Perhaps arranging the fins in
>> > rows rather than circular arrays would make them easier to clean
>> quickly.
>> > ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > I expect that emissions per unit of time will increase, since you are
>> > quenching the flame more quickly at the bottom of the pot and stopping
>> the
>> > reactions that would otherwise burn up some of particles and CO. The
>> > effect might be small or large. On the other hand, if the time to boil
>> is
>> > greatly reduced, the total emissions might be a lot less. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > I expect that you could make a pot out of cast aluminum with the fins
>> cast
>> > in place. You could use tapered pins to save material and improve
>> > castability. You could probably also use sophisticated welding
>> techniques,
>> > as has been described, or possibly furnace brazing techniques. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > The material of the pot doesn?t make much difference. Since all metals
>> > are much better conductors of heat than gases, it doesn?t matter whether
>> > the metal is much better at conducting (stainless steel) or much much
>> > better at conducting (aluminum). It would mostly then be a cost and
>> > manufacturing issue. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > The fins must be bonded (welded, brazed, soldered, cast in place) to the
>> > pot itself, otherwise there is too much resistance to heat transfer
>> across
>> > the interface. ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > What to do next? Where does one get one? If I can get a sample I could
>> > test it out on a variety of stoves, rocket, charcoal, open fire,
>> gasifier,
>> > LPG, fire-in-a-bucket, etc. I could prepare a quick report by the next
>> > ETHOS time. Or, someone who does experimental work full time, such as
>> Apro
>> > or many other labs, could do a better job in less time. What I?m
>> saying is
>> > that this is a very exciting development, that could make a huge
>> difference
>> > in what we do. We should pursue this quickly.****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Dale Andreatta, Ph.D., P.E.****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org<
>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>]
>> > *On Behalf Of *Dean Still
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:36 AM
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot/ capacitive discharge stud
>> weldie
>> > ****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Hi Lanny,****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > We tested a couple of pots with fins but the space between the fins
>> > clogged up quickly with soot, a good insulator.****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Best,****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Dean****
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> > wrote:****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding?****
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes I have a stud welder but I did not realize it would weld dissimilar
>> > metals especially aluminum to anything else.
>> >
>> > Stud welding is very finicky and will leave a blemish on the opposite
>> side
>> > of thin metal.
>> >
>> > When a stud weld fails you have to grind the surface to clean it up
>> before
>> > rewelding.. How are you going to do that if it is between the other
>> studs?
>> >
>> > Attaching studs, fins or anything to a pot is going to be problematic,
>> but
>> > attaching something to the pot holder may be practical. The heat
>> transfer
>> > may not be as good as having something attached to the pot but it could
>> > possibly improve the heat transfer.
>> >
>> > Lanny Henson
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:23 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot****
>> >
>> > [Default] On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:48:02 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>> > <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:****
>> >
>> > I like creative people and take no pleasure criticizing their work but
>> it
>> > is going to be too expensive and difficult to make with all the
>> pegs.****
>> >
>> >
>> > Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding? This would
>> > allow welding of dissimilar metals to the pot in any pattern. I have
>> > no idea of costs.
>> >
>> > Have you done heat transfer tests with your 4mm aluminium pot compared
>> > with the thinner stainless one? Stainless is a notoriously poor
>> > conductor of heat and theoretically would need to be just under a
>> > tenth of the thickness of aluminium for the same conductivity, but I
>> > do use stainless pots at home.
>> >
>> > Finally can you explain the difference between a vat and a pot?
>> >
>> > Paul I do consider this to be important because biomass stoves have an
>> > inherent problem with heat transfer compared with natural gas or LPG
>> > so improvements in heat exchange will have high benefits.
>> >
>> > AJH****
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/****
>> >
>> > ** **
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 14
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 06:48:11 -0400
>> From: Jonathan P Gill <jg45 at icloud.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> Message-ID: <58747FE9-BA0A-47E9-9C91-90B144013F46 at icloud.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Todd,
>>
>> I find that a TLUD with a well tuned air/fuel mix, that also has good
>> turbulence in the mix, will produce little soot on pot bottoms. Proper
>> carburation of a turbulent fuel air mix makes for a cleaner burning TLUD.
>>
>> Excessive soot build up is a good indication that the carburation and
>> turbulence of the mix are sub optimal.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jock
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2013, at 11:42 PM, Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Subject: Cajun Rocket Pot / TLUD Soot
>> >
>> > Soot is an end product on all pots used on biomass stoves with or
>> without fins or skirts. Heat transfer is increased by adding more surface
>> area to cooking pots with dowels, finned ribs, corrugated ribs, rows of
>> fins or full skirted pots as discussed. Steel woks with lamented cast iron
>> bases with fins have been available in China for quite sometime. We have
>> both in our SilverFire showroom. They are designed specifically for
>> biomass. Finned pots specific for LPG have also been available for a
>> number of years.
>> >
>> > The Chinese Enron turbo pots have been marketed in the USA for several
>> years (www.turbopot.com). Rebates for Enron finned pots are available
>> from utility companies in the USA for LPG savings. The LPG fin design on
>> Turbo pots differ significantly from the biomass design. Narrow LPG finned
>> pot channels clog with soot and the end result is that the soot negates
>> heat transfer, if used with biomass. Fin designs for biomass cooking are
>> significantly wider and work well. Time to boil is significantly reduced.
>> >
>> >
>> > The ease of cleaning and product acceptance is also important, as Dale
>> touched upon. We had early prototypes of both fin pot & skirted pots
>> fabricated in 2008. I was not a proponent of the Aprovecho fin pot. It
>> made no sense for the end user. The early design had fins that extended
>> from the base and up the sidewalls of the pot. We would have had to
>> provide tetanus shots for end users, had that design ever reached the
>> market. The exterior design was unacceptable. Cleaning or handling the
>> pot was a handling hazard.
>> >
>> >
>> > Our production pot we introduced to the introduced to the market was
>> the skirted pot. It cut approximately 5 minutes to time to boil in our
>> early WBT work. I brought the skirted pot to market though, for the
>> important fact that we designed the skirt to protrude below the cast iron
>> cook top. This important design feature reduced the chance of the pot
>> sliding off the stove to prevent burning the cook or children. Since soot
>> did not accumulate on the exterior skirt, it also meant less cleaning for
>> the cook, compared to the finned pot. The skirted pot was more acceptable
>> than our fin pot design. Combining a skirt and fins would provide even
>> greater heat transfer. A well-designed pot must be easy to clean.
>> >
>> >
>> > Todd Albi, SilverFire
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
>> > Is a TLUD likely to have less soot buildup on fins?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
>> Behalf Of Andreatta, Dale A.
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:12 AM
>> >
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I like it!!!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > As some of you know, I spent a lot of time around 2007-2008 working on
>> finned pots, and never really got them to work well. I didn?t try this
>> type of ?pin fin? design because I couldn?t figure out how to make a
>> prototype.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > With this pin fin design (that?s what mechanical engineers call this
>> shape of fin) you increase the heat transfer area, but unlike the fins I
>> worked with, you don?t significantly change the flow of the gas. You get
>> high convective heat transfer coefficients. Hot gases impinging on a
>> surface (hitting the surface from a perpendicular direction) usually gives
>> better heat transfer than hot gases flowing parallel to a surface. The
>> basic tests that have been done prove this, at least with industrial fuel
>> flames.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I expect that with a sooty flame, you could use a brush to scrape off
>> most of the soot, and what you don?t get this time you can get next time.
>> Thin layers of soot wouldn?t have much effect. Perhaps arranging the fins
>> in rows rather than circular arrays would make them easier to clean quickly.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I expect that emissions per unit of time will increase, since you are
>> quenching the flame more quickly at the bottom of the pot and stopping the
>> reactions that would otherwise burn up some of particles and CO. The
>> effect might be small or large. On the other hand, if the time to boil is
>> greatly reduced, the total emissions might be a lot less.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I expect that you could make a pot out of cast aluminum with the fins
>> cast in place. You could use tapered pins to save material and improve
>> castability. You could probably also use sophisticated welding techniques,
>> as has been described, or possibly furnace brazing techniques.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The material of the pot doesn?t make much difference. Since all metals
>> are much better conductors of heat than gases, it doesn?t matter whether
>> the metal is much better at conducting (stainless steel) or much much
>> better at conducting (aluminum). It would mostly then be a cost and
>> manufacturing issue.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The fins must be bonded (welded, brazed, soldered, cast in place) to
>> the pot itself, otherwise there is too much resistance to heat transfer
>> across the interface.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > What to do next? Where does one get one? If I can get a sample I
>> could test it out on a variety of stoves, rocket, charcoal, open fire,
>> gasifier, LPG, fire-in-a-bucket, etc. I could prepare a quick report by
>> the next ETHOS time. Or, someone who does experimental work full time,
>> such as Apro or many other labs, could do a better job in less time. What
>> I?m saying is that this is a very exciting development, that could make a
>> huge difference in what we do. We should pursue this quickly.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dale Andreatta, Ph.D., P.E.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
>> Behalf Of Dean Still
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 11:36 AM
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot/ capacitive discharge stud weldie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Lanny,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We tested a couple of pots with fins but the space between the fins
>> clogged up quickly with soot, a good insulator.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Lanny Henson <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding?
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes I have a stud welder but I did not realize it would weld dissimilar
>> metals especially aluminum to anything else.
>> >
>> > Stud welding is very finicky and will leave a blemish on the opposite
>> side of thin metal.
>> >
>> > When a stud weld fails you have to grind the surface to clean it up
>> before rewelding.. How are you going to do that if it is between the other
>> studs?
>> >
>> > Attaching studs, fins or anything to a pot is going to be problematic,
>> but attaching something to the pot holder may be practical. The heat
>> transfer may not be as good as having something attached to the pot but it
>> could possibly improve the heat transfer.
>> >
>> > Lanny Henson
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:23 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cajun Rocket Pot
>> >
>> > [Default] On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:48:02 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>> > <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > I like creative people and take no pleasure criticizing their work but
>> it is going to be too expensive and difficult to make with all the pegs.
>> >
>> >
>> > Lanny have you seen capacitive discharge stud welding? This would
>> > allow welding of dissimilar metals to the pot in any pattern. I have
>> > no idea of costs.
>> >
>> > Have you done heat transfer tests with your 4mm aluminium pot compared
>> > with the thinner stainless one? Stainless is a notoriously poor
>> > conductor of heat and theoretically would need to be just under a
>> > tenth of the thickness of aluminium for the same conductivity, but I
>> > do use stainless pots at home.
>> >
>> > Finally can you explain the difference between a vat and a pot?
>> >
>> > Paul I do consider this to be important because biomass stoves have an
>> > inherent problem with heat transfer compared with natural gas or LPG
>> > so improvements in heat exchange will have high benefits.
>> >
>> > AJH
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 15
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:57:49 -0700
>> From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
>> To: <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> Cc: 'Daniel Roggema' <droggema at gmail.com>, 'Discussion of biomass'
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Hand-makng small roundish briquettes:
>> Message-ID: <017601ce8c6b$fee123c0$fca36b40$@legacyfound.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> Often squeezing pressure is th the solution. Its most often about blending
>> hte right amount of fibrus material and combustible infiller. Its the
>> combination of fibers that are conditioned to flex plastically and
>> infilling
>> material that is dense yet relatively porous, With the right combination
>> you
>> can indeed create denst briquetts by hand without , no amount of force
>> will
>> create a good briquette. I do not knwo what aprovecho uses as we lost
>> contact with them after they visited here to gather what we were doing,
>> but
>> I would say that it is very likely that if you found paper blends there (
>> and fomr your description they are paper based) it would be workable but
>> paper is far from the ideal in terms of good hot combustion.
>>
>> So its easy to dive in and make a pancake but to get to crepes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming you are using a realtively good blend, Here is a multiport
>> cylinder design we came up with a few years ago: please note that I have
>> never built it! So caveat emptor eh ..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> cid:B4F8D033-20B0-4FE7-A18E-18970856D934cid:09B0D435-697B-409F-801E-31C76A3D
>>
>> F1AEcid:0B5B0BD7-00CF-4723-A084-F6A2EC70AB81cid:81C20FB2-F69B-49DD-BACF-8579
>>
>> 0D11082Dcid:F91FF435-FB21-43D5-9C81-D5BAB32884A7cid:3348FDD0-C53F-429A-B212-
>> 26F76E17A4FCcid:BA77C963-3C32-4F5F-925A-6879171BE6BBAgh but the greatest
>> plans of mice and men often go astray..
>>
>> IE., with the above options it'd be relatively easy to findout which would
>> work best with realtivley little investment in time and materials..Go
>> astray
>> you may but may you return wiser for another day.
>>
>>
>>
>> . I would also invite you to contact Lee Hite for his rectangular stick
>> briquettes for on his ingenious micro compound lever briquette press,
>> which
>> he has built and tested both in His Ohio base and in many parts of the
>> thrid
>> world we well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.cleanstove.org/1/post/2011/12/meetup-with-lee-hite-zan-smith-and-
>> ron-gorley.html<http://www.cleanstove.org/1/post/2011/12/meetup-with-lee-hite-zan-smith-and-ron-gorley.html>
>>
>>
>>
>> or consult Paul Anderson to see how his wedgies worked out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2013, at 4:16 PM, rongretlarson at comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> List:
>>
>> This below is the follow-up from a few minutes ago, when I wrote on
>> this list
>> " I am going to write something next about my thoughts after trying
>> to produce a third shaped-briquette"..
>>
>> This below is from from the perspective of using briquettes in TLUDs,
>> where (except for in the last note), I haven't seen any way to as easily
>> make char as in a TLUD. The holey briquette approach championed by
>> Richard
>> Stanley gives some very nice flames in modified rockets, but those
>> briquettes are being broken up to use in TLUDs. I think the same will be
>> true for the long rectangular "sticks" being produced by InStove folk in
>> Cottage Grove
>>
>> The question I have had in mind for a long time is whether there is a
>> "best" shape for briquettes intended for TLUDs. So I took the opportunty
>> to
>> get my hands wet (literally) when I found several large vats of material
>> prepared for our (and InStove) experiments. I (and a few others, but
>> others
>> just for a few minutes) tried making small spheres (small - thinking I
>> might need a sphere diameter in the range of 1/5-1/10 of a chamber
>> diameter)
>> - so never more than 3-4 cm. The first attempts all seemed to keep coming
>> out more like small snowballs. I cut many of the larger in half and,
>> repacking, still got a sphere that seemed too big.
>>
>> Even when getting down to a relatively small size, the hand-packing
>> ddn't seem natural. I couldn't see a way to make a sphere with one hand -
>> and it was only after quite a while that I got down to four
>> "water-squeezes", using both hands, that the quasi-sphere looked worth
>> testing in a stove. I still don't know if that has been done - as
>> drying
>> was not complete enough as of yesterday afternoon. The final "dry"
>> density
>> seemed pretty loose - but no worse than other briquettes sitting around
>> and
>> a lot better than some..
>>
>> Yesterday, I tried a few more experiments. I found that I could move
>> much faster making long "ellipsoids" - creating a fist with the paper pulp
>> inside the fist shape. I used my left hand with just one squeeze and
>> passing to the right hand,for a second squeeze (imagine milking a cow).
>> Eventually, I was moving pretty fast - when I could be squeezing two
>> units
>> with two hands at the same time. The final product was sort of like a
>> "furry" finger or a furry link-breakfast-sausage (other makers will
>> surely
>> think of another biological shape whose name is not to be used in polite
>> internet traffic). No test results, but again the same feeling that the
>> density was pretty good (that the human hand can produce a quite strong
>> squeeze, when directed of a surface area that is not too large.).
>>
>> One advantage of this approach could be more kg per hour. It may fit
>> well with a social gathering - no needed movement from a sitting position.
>> Another is zero capital equipment expense. But mainly, the advantage is
>> in
>> having a final briquette fuel shape that fits with TLUD designs - at least
>> the larger
>>
>> I look forward to hearing that others have tried "t*rdquettes" in a
>> stove.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 16
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:16:22 -0700
>> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
>> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> Cc: daniel roggema <droggema at gmail.com>, Discussion of biomass
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Hand-makng small roundish briquettes:
>> Message-ID: <CFA3D31E-EFD6-43F4-BAE0-637212426725 at legacyfound.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Ron, daniel et al.
>> Apologies for my atrocious spelling.
>> Here is what I was trying to say:
>>
>> Ron,
>> Often greater squeezing pressure (to achieve greater density) is NOT the
>> solution. It is most often about blending the right amount of fibrus
>> material and combustible infiller. Its about attaining the right
>> combination of fibers that are conditioned to flex plastically with an
>> infilling material that is dense yet relatively porous. No amount of force
>> will create a good briquette using the wet process becsue increased
>> pressure results in shearing of the fibers and vaporising the water in the
>> slurry, creating a crude form of steam cannon.
>> I do not know what blend Approvecho uses as we lost contact with them
>> after they visited here to gather what we were doing, but I would say that
>> it is very likely that if you found paper blends there. Relatively dense
>> briquettes can be achieved with paper-based blends by hand but paper is
>> far from the ideal in terms of good hot combustion?
>> Thanks for your patience,
>> Richard Stanley
>> =====
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 17
>> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:24:47 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> To: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>, Discussion of biomass
>> cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] pellets in an urban setting
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> 399017469.1648004.1375118687377.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Paul and cc list (but the questions below pertinent to any and all)
>>
>> This is to hope that you can perform a few more experiments re fuels. I
>> am sure all your comments are correct comparing loose husks to pellets, but
>> wonder if you could try and report on several other fuel options as well -
>> especially telling us about prices in Vietnam. Your comment about running
>> stoves for free because char produced in your stove is worth more than the
>> pellets going in is very important. Can you give more cost (per kilo)
>> detail on that? The next three (are there more?) items are extensions -
>> both on technical results and on economics.
>>
>> First is wood chips. The stove camp activity was all based on this
>> product because of a request from a South American (?) company wanting to
>> harvest a large older forest, I think specifically planted decades ago to
>> save nearby old growth forests. I presume chips are being preferred over
>> pellets for cost reasons (I have heard a 3:1 price difference). Hopefully
>> you can find a chip supply and tell us on their performance and economics
>> in any of your stoves as well.
>>
>> Second is any fuel made by hand from paper, leaves, grasses, rice husks
>> (?), etc - as promoted by Richard Stanley, etal. Presumably you saw my
>> recent report on making something specifically for TLUDs. The advantages
>> here are making productive use of materials having no other possible use
>> and supplying jobs for low-income people. I am about also to respond to
>> recent message from Richard along these lines (re using only hand muscles).
>>
>> Third is use of small twigs, ag residues, straws, reeds, grasses, etc
>> (similar to rice husks, but denser and available where husks are not) that
>> can be used without any processing.. Again, maybe a job creator - with hope
>> that the char value exceeds the fuel cost This presently is the fuel of
>> choice for backpackers as it can be found everywhere. Can this approach be
>> expanded, again as a way for fuel preparers and cooks to make money rather
>> than only expend it?
>>
>> Fourth (and last) is the supply of larger wood (maybe only branches?) cut
>> into small pieces (I saw a lot from board lumber cut to about 6-12 inch
>> length almost all less than 1 square inch cross-section (NOT the standard
>> fuel in the field). This was the main fuel alternative to chips at the
>> stove camp for those not using TLUDs. Presumably this is also possible in
>> Vietnam for vertical stacking in your device with optimum heights and
>> packing densities. Again emphasis to be on economics - still hoping to find
>> lower fuel costs than pellets, but less bulky than husks, if possible.
>>
>> I pick on you as probably having some local labor available to try these
>> alternatives with a chance of selling more stoves where costs can be an
>> important factor - and you knowing of the importance of either getting more
>> char in the ground or of making char with use of the pyrolysis gases. I'll
>> be glad to split the costs of trying these other quite-different fuel
>> options in your stove.
>>
>> Somewhat along these lines, this is also to alert all to an EPA-GACC
>> webinar on 20 August on batch stoves (10:00 AM Eastern). This received a
>> few days ago:
>> The online registration form (
>> https://unfoundation.conferencinghub.com/attendee/RegisterLogin.aspx?hubconfID=1632144&qtID=1&act=reg&cp=2861) includes a place to enter comments or questions you would like addressed
>> during the webinar.
>>
>>
>>
>> So Paul, thanks in advance for anything new you can report on the
>> economics of these six fuel options.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Olivier" <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 9:06:32 PM
>> Subject: [Stoves] pellets in an urban setting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am getting excited about the use of pellets. In an urban setting in a
>> developing country such as Vietnam, a pellet gasifier should be a lot more
>> socially acceptable than a loose biomass gasifier.
>>
>> Since pellets can be as much as 8 to 10 times more dense than loose
>> biomass, the reactor can be much smaller. A net reactor height of only 8
>> inches is all that is needed to give a burn time of up to 90 minutes. Since
>> the unit is small, it is lightweight. The reactor weight is but 1.2 kg. It
>> is easy to handle. With such a small reactor, the manufacturing cost drops
>> considerably. This means that the most heat-resistant and non-corrosive
>> stainless steels become affordable. This adds years to the life of the
>> unit. This also means that the unit looks good and takes on the appearance
>> of a high-end kitchen utensil. If the unit does not look good, it will be
>> hard to sell.
>>
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Short/Photos/IMG_1571.JPG
>>
>> Pellets can be more cheaply transported into urban areas than loose
>> biomass. Dealing with loose biomass can often be dusty and messy. The
>> storage of pellets in a kitchen takes up much less space than the storage
>> of loose biomass. With pellets there should be a lot less emissions of
>> particulates.
>>
>> Biochar pellets are easier to quantify than loose biochar. A measurement
>> of biochar volume is all that is needed. There is only a small reduction in
>> volume as when a pellet is transformed into biochar.
>>
>> The flame put out by a pellet gasifier is rich and intense throughout the
>> burn:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84qDsbBO9p8
>>
>> The flame does not turn ethereal.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is true that pellets cost more than loose biomass. But pellets are
>> cheaper to transport into a city than loose biomass, and the biochar
>> produced from pellets has a higher value in Vietnam than the original
>> pellets. I foresee the possibility of an exchange program where pellets are
>> supplied free-of-charge in exchange for the biochar produced from these
>> pellets.
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 35, Issue 22
>> **************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Art Donnelly
> President SeaChar.Org
> US Director, The Farm Stove Project
> Proyecto Estufa Finca
> <http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
> "SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
>
--
Art Donnelly
President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
"SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
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