[Stoves] Insulation and stove life

Tue Jun 11 08:50:52 CDT 2013

Paal cc "Stoves" 

Thanks for the added information. I have seen a video of the three working together. Your word "horizontal" makes a little more sense. 

The reason I asked is that, in general, I don't think it possible to make char when the primary air flow is horizontal. The reason is that the primary air will tend to flow over, rather than through, the "slumping" fuel bed. 

Ron 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> 
To: "list Stove" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Cc: "Ron" <rongretlarson at comcast.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:57:36 AM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life 

Ron 
The horizontal PP TLUD-ND is in some ways different from the vertical TLUDs. 
The fuel which can be pellets or chopped wood is placed into 1, 2 or 3 
vertical simple containers called the energy units, ignited and put into the 
stove. One unit is designed for fast cooking and one or two for simmering. 
The units has no regulation apart from you just use one unit for smaller 
cooking like tea or coffee, two units for heavier cooking and 3 units for 
bigger pots. For simmering you need only one unit. For household cooking you 
will always at least have 2 blazes working if you need it. For institutional 
kitchen with huge pots you probably need four units for coming to a boil and 
then only one unit for simmering. The temperature in the bakery oven will 
cool down by moister from bread or food while cooking. 
The fast cooking unit for household cooking are designed for 360 gr pellets 
and will burn with a smoke and soot-less flame of around 700˚C for about 45 
minutes. The simmering unit is designed for 360 gr pellets and will burn 
with a flame of 4-500 ˚C for about 60-70 minutes. It will also work with 3 
energy units with the same effect. It’s still under trial. 
A bigger unit for institutional cooking is designed 1.2 kg pellets that will 
burn with a smokeless flame of 750 ˚C for about 70-80 minutes without any 
refilling. 
All units are producing 20 -25% biochar and easy to recover. 
For more information paaw at online.no 
Regards Paal W 

-----Opprinnelig melding----- 
From: Ron 
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:52 PM 
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; paaw at online.no 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life 

Paal. Cc list 

1. I don't recall seeing the word "horizontal" with Peko Pe before. Can 
you explain or point me to a site? 

2. I agree about the temperatures needed for various cooking tasks. How 
are you accomplishing this wide range with the Peko Pe? 

Ron 

On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:58 AM, "Paal Wendelbo" <paaw at online.no> wrote: 

> Stovers 
> Crispin is right, the best insulation is air, and arranged the right way 
> it will give some preheating to the intake off secondary air at the same 
> time as it will prevent destroying the metal. By natural draft you will 
> have a yellow charcoal with a temperature of about 900˚C and by forced air 
> you will have white charcoal of a temperature of about 1000 ˚C, the 
> temperature blacksmiths need for forcing and welding steel. 
> But what is convenient temperature for cooking? It is definitely not 1000 
> ˚C. On top of charcoal it can sometimes be too hot, on open fire from wood 
> sometimes too low. I have found that my horizontal TLUD ND PP stove works 
> best with a temperature about 700 ˚C for cooking, about 450 ˚C for 
> simmering and around 200 ˚C for baking bread. And to obtain that, I need 
> no insulation anywhere in the stove. 
> Regards Paal W 
> 
> -----Opprinnelig melding----- From: ajheggie at gmail.com 
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:26 PM 
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves 
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Insulation and stove life 
> 
> [Default] On Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:10:58 -0700,Bob Tingleff 
> <bob at tingleff.com> wrote: 
> 
>> Belonio's TLUD design calls for an insulated gasifier reactor, with the 
>> inner cylinder being 20 gauge stainless, though Paul O's version is not 
>> insulated. And Rocket stoves are insulated. So I'm surprised to see the 
>> comments below pass without any discussion. I wonder if Belonio's rice 
>> husk 
>> gasifier stoves have longevity problems. 
> 
> Insulation is necessary to reduce heat loss, so we are not saying don 
> not use insulation. What we are saying is if the insulation is added 
> to the "cool" side of a metal surface in the stove then it can cause 
> the metal work to get to a temperature at which it fails, normally by 
> oxidation. 
> 
> On our high pressure pyrolysis unit we had blocks of ceramic 
> insulation inside a steel containment but it was necessary to allow 
> for cooling of the outer skin because stray hot gas could get past the 
> insulation joints to heat the steel. 
> 
> Steel seems to survive the temperature in a TLUD quite well, but this 
> is only a temperature of around 600C. If the TLUD pyrolysis front 
> reaches the primary air inlet and the char starts burning in updraught 
> mode the temperature rapidly reaches over 1100C and steel fails 
> quickly. 
> 
> AJH 
> 
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