[Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Sun Jun 16 06:21:38 CDT 2013
Dear Michael and Rebecca,
The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
> the use of primative
> pit kilns and their pollution.
In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat. A simple TLUD
could also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see that
the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the TChar
designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using some
of that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
> alternative fuels
> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
> cocnut products as fuel
> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
> had commented on the use of primative
> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
> hopefully to reduce some polluion
> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive
> for now she is going to be expanding her
> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up
> on Rebacca's travails
> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
> heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
> .
> Michael
> Marshall Islands
> --- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> *To:* Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
> Rebecca,
> Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a
> gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge
> to ignite and creating the pyrolytic front.
>
> I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of
> your coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily
> and ignite the chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
>
> REMEMBER:
> Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
> fueling Chamber!
> This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of
> your charcoal or biochar production.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Thanks
>
> Otto
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
> Rebecca,
>
> To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology
> is highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes
> them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with
> densified wood pellets). But just make a slightly larger and
> longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of
> pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that migrates
> slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>
> How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows
> the coconut so well!! So I presume you know very well the
> native "tuba" drink from the flower shoot? Do take a look at
> my photo album below :
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>
> -- you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;
> your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from
> coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic bags). The charcoal
> makers are my biggest competitors for the bucong I need to
> fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37 -the small
> pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses "oling" or
> coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will find the big
> traditional kalans which can use firewood, "palwa" or
> "bucong". The "bucong" is the fuel of the poorest and the
> "bingka" or rice cake bakers; the "palwa" is bought by the
> not so poor; firewood by the middleclass; and the "oling "
> is bought by the many food vendors (like "tocinos" -- similar
> to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling
> water for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for
> broiling fish and meats (sinugba).
> Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the
> ground --a smoky process with a lot of energy going to waste.
> Do you know a better way??
> Rebecca
> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> Dear Rebecca
> As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
> I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower
> shoot and fronds and shell
> Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized
> pieces. After the nuts are husked
> women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in
> the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
> Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn
> temperature make it very good for cooking rice.
> BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
> I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra
> drier to produce better copra with out bugs and mold
> with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
> In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong"
> of course this mean no more shell left over.
> Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would
> be considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough
> stuff. I find slicing off the leaflets in the field and using
> the coconut frond mid rib chopped into segments and split
> length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces feed into
> a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket
> stove fuel.
> Michael
> Marshall Islands
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> *To:* ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> *Cc:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ;
> Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> Hello Michael,
> Thank you for your suggestions and question. My comments
> are as follows:
> 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash
> from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros
> Oriental. The ash is free and my partners with the 11th
> IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the Memorial
> Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to
> Dumaguete City. If this does not work, I'll follow up on
> the TLUD route.
> 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown
> me their work with insulating bricks to form the
> combustion chamber in Timor Leste. The insulating bricks
> are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong, heavy
> duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion
> chamber and to support big cooking pots. I still think
> that tiny insulating "clay marbles" between the heavy
> duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion chamber is the
> most practical way to pursue. I am hopeful Rolf and
> ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay
> marbles or pebbles cheaply.
> 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk -- it is a
> by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production.
> Every 3 months, the coconuts are harvested, cut into 2
> halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make copra.
> The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds
> or storage buildings to make "bucong" -- the fuel we use
> to fire the eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use
> the "bucong" or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a
> rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
> machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a
> combustion chamber opening as wide and as high
> (5.5"x5.5") as that of the eco-kalan.
> Rebecca Vermeer
> Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
> British Columbia, Canada
> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> Rebecca
> Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low
> cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your
> insulation.
> Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire
> your liner in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the
> need to break
> things up.
> How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket
> stove?
> Michael N Trevor
> Marshall Islands
>
> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> *To:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> Paul,
> I currently use wood ash as insulating material
> between the kalan and combustion chamber of the
> eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
> coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the
> coconut tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less
> firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
> compared to traditional kalans and other traditional
> cookstoves in Negros Oriental, Philippines. A
> shortage in supply of ash is one fact
> or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have
> considered making an insulating material using a
> 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in the form of
> pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces
> after firing. I would fire the pellets or the bricks
> along with the eco-kalans up to 900 degrees Celsius.
> Will there be significant formation of cristobalite
> under these conditions? Would handling the fired
> pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a health
> hazard? Thanks,
> Rebecca Vermeer
> *From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
> *To:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> ; larry
> winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove
> life
> Rebecca,
> If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot
> of cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this problem
> should be minimized, provided channeling does not
> occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the
> particulate matter in the combustion gases. With rice
> hull pellets in a TLUD we have a lot less channeling,
> and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice
> hull pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and
> many other reasons.
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
> On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer"
> <ravermeer at telus.net <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>> wrote:
>
> Hello Paul,
> Larry just told me that the silica content of rice
> hull ash is over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013
> Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
> Philippines which used rice hull for fuel. Given
> your comment below regarding cristobalite "which
> is a nasty carcinogen" and severely hazardous to
> human health (see link below), would you recommend
> the use of rice hull as a household fuel for
> cookstoves?
> Rebecca Vermeer
> CRISTOBALITE LINK:
> http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
> *From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove
> life
> Paal,
>
> One thing I look for on my burner is that all
> burner holes support a flame throughout the
> process. If channeling occurs during the process
> or if char is being burned as the process comes to
> a close, then one can see burner holes that do not
> support a flame. This means that CO2 is being
> discharged from the burner holes, and of course
> CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed, this
> represents a big inefficiency, since combustion
> takes place far below the pot. When this happens
> the sides of the reactor can easily turn red hot
> and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot
> the presence of CO2 if the top of the reactor
> stays open and does not have a lid with burner holes.
>
> If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting
> in channeling, it can happen that only a few holes
> (among a total of 80 in my case) do not support a
> flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the
> reactor, this problem is immediately corrected.
> Also the effect of the presence of CO2 can be
> spotted by the cook in another way. The
> distribution of heat to the pan is not even.
>
> Also many of the positive characteristics of
> biochar are lost when biochar is combusted and is
> reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
> biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and
> the combustion of biochar takes place if the fan
> is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice
> hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at all the
> same thing when it comes to growing plants. Also
> rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite,
> which is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary
> conditions, no farmer should be handling this stuff.
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo
> <paaw at online.no <mailto:paaw at online.no>> wrote:
>
> Ron
>
> By end of flame the color of the char is red
> to yellow, that indicate a temperature of 700
> to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke, complete
> combustion has taken place. Is that not good
> for biochar?
>
> Regards Paal W
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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