[Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
Thomas Reed
tombreed2010 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 16 14:54:19 CDT 2013
Dear Biochar developers;
Conventional charcoal making (with an external heat source around a vessel) typically reach temperatures of 300 C, at which point the biomass will Autochar itself up to 400-450C, an exothermic reaction.
When I make charcoal using the cellulose combustion to heat the ~20% remaining charcoal, temperatures are in the 500-700 C range, depending on the insulation of the vessel and the combustion rate (superficial velocity).
It is hard for me to believe that no one has commented here (that I've seen) on the advantage or disadvantage of the higher temperature charcoals.
Any and all comments welcome.
Tom Reed
Thomas B Reed
280 Hardwick Rd
Barre, Ma 01005
508-353-7841
On Jun 16, 2013, at 2:00 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Information shared on this Listserve (Timothy Roy Longwell)
> 2. Re: Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens] (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> 3. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Paul Anderson)
> 4. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> (Rebecca A. Vermeer)
> 5. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Tom Miles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:21:52 +0000
> From: Timothy Roy Longwell <tlongwell at zamorano.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] Information shared on this Listserve
> Message-ID:
> <EC67B308F6641743886918374ACE4076507EE159 at zamo-mail-02.zamorano.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello all,
>
> Tom and Paul recently commented on the value of the information shared on this Listserve and they had a vision of condensing and publishing (before Tom retires) the combined experience and knowledge of the exchanges stored in the archives.
>
> I think that it would be fantastic if the GACC funded a consolidation of this listserve information.
>
> Chapters on the themes discussed on this list (fuels, combustion, user preferences, durability, emissions, health, etc - or however it is organized) would be extremely valuable and a great "snapshot" of where we are and what is known.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Timothy Roy Longwell
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:42:36 +0000 (UTC)
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Stephen Joseph
> <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> Cc: Biochar-production <Biochar-production at yahoogroups.com>,
> biochar-soils <biochar-soils at yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
> Message-ID:
> <803054761.289654.1371393756883.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Stephen: stove list, adding two biochar lists
>
> Three question areas - because I sense several major - maybe new - recommendations from you below.
>
> 1. I met Mr/Dr Khoi at the GACC meeting and thought his was a TLUD design. Can you point me at a site where the design is drawn and explained? ( have looked a bit, unsuccessfully)
>
> 2. I have been long impressed by your use of solid state theory with biochar - but I had previously thought you were talking only about changes after char placement in the soil.
> - Have you written up this idea of coating the biomass input to a pyrolyzer with a clay to improve CEC?
> - Any experimental data yet in the field for char with and without a clay coating during firing?
> - If one was making pellets out of almost anything, would you recommend always a clay binder? (This has to be cheap.)
>
> 3. There are more than a few biochar proponents arguing for higher temperature char production (more adsorption/absorption - 700-800 C?). You have long preferred lower temperatures I believe.(with or without clay). Care to suggest an optimum T?
>
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Joseph" <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:29:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
>
>
> Hi Paul
>
> No we are pyrolysing them in the outer chamber so they are not subjected to direct combustion.
>
>
> Mr Khoi's stove is not a TLUD. I would not recommend people use TLUD stoves for rice husks unless they cover the husks with wet clay and then dry the clay. This coating has the advantage of keeping the temperature down and also activating the surface
>
>
> In any of my TLUD work I try to get people to coat their biomass in an iron rick clay to improve both CEC and yields.
>
>
> Regards
> Stephen
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Stephen,
>
> Are you burning rice hulls at a temperature less than 450 C?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Stephen Joseph < joey.stephen at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
> I paul
>
>
> Not if you use the design with an inner fire box and an outer pyrolysis chamber as is Mr Khois design. In fact it is the main reason why I recommended this design configuration and sizing to PED.
>
>
> We did a large research project with the Australia Government research arm ACIAR to optimise the design.
>
>
> I have measurde the rice husk temperature in this outer chamber and it stays pretty uniform at around 450C after the initial drying and torrefaction phases.
>
>
>
>
> Regards
> Stephen
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
>
>
>
> But, Stephen, temperatures can rise above 900 C when burning rice hulls.
> If we operate at low temperatures (450 C) in burning rice hulls, are we not inevitably making a lot of smoke?
>
> Even at relatively low average combustion temperatures, will there not be a tendency for hot zones to form within the combustor?
>
>
> Paul Olivier
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Stephen Joseph < joey.stephen at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
> All
>
>
> There has been a lot of work done on formation of crystobalite. The rate of formation is both a function of time and temerature
>
>
> If you have low temperatures (450c) and short times (<60 minutes)you wont produce it.
>
>
> Mehta in India did a lot of work on this in the 80's and published a book on rice husk ash cement if I remember correctly
>
>
> Regards
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
>
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> I found this news report:
> http://www.ipsnews.net/2009/10/thailand-renewable-energy-not-so-clean-and-green-after-all/
>
> Not such a nice story.
> I do not think it's a good idea to burn rice hulls or rice straw in either power plants, brick kilns or household stoves.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> I have read in many articles that cristobalite can form at temperatures of about 900 C.
> http://www.jicosh.gr.jp/old/niih/en/indu_hel/2004/pdf/42-2-24.pdf
> In burning rice hulls, temperatures can easily exceed 900 C.
> If cristobalite forms and is breathed in, human health is severely impacted: silicosis, tuberculosis, cancer and so forth.
>
> Silica (SiO2) is a constituent of the ash produced by the combustion process. Different
> types of biomass fuels contain different quantities of silica. The International Agency for
> Research on Cancer has classified silica as a human carcinogen. Long term inhalation
> of airborne silica particulates can cause lung cancer or other related health problems.
> As rice hull ash contains high levels of silica (~15%), its use as a biomass fuel
> presumably increases the risk of developing silicosis-related illnesses, and care should
> be used in handling the ash.
> http://www.reap-canada.com/online_library/IntDev/id_eco_sugarcane/7%20Strategies%20for.pdf
>
> Silica (SiO2) is the main mineral component of rice husk ash (RHA) (85-90 per cent). It carries serious health risks, particularly to the
> respiratory system.
> http://www.dhf.uu.se/pdffiler/cc7/cc7_web_art4.pdf
>
> Cristobalite can be present in both the ash and fly ash. If someone designs a stove to burn rice hulls or rice straw, he has to be sure that temperatures remain below the point of cristobalite formation.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Tom Miles < tmiles at trmiles.com > wrote:
>
> <blockquote>
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> After discussing rice hull combustion and gasification at some length you are now saying this is dangerous. Why, specifically? You have discussed the potential to emit cristobalite but there is no evidence of the hazard it presents. What evidence do you have that burning rice husks or rice straw is a health hazard?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: Stoves [mailto: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On Behalf Of Paul Olivier
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:56 PM
> To: JJ Claire; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> JJ,
>
> I would not recommend that you burn rice hulls ir rice straw.
>
> In many cases this is quite dangerous.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, JJ Claire < pugoclaire at yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Greetings one and all,
>
>
> I visit the Philippines often and usually stay about six months a year.
>
>
> I often use a rice hull stove. I would like to get a plan to build a
>
>
> concrete stove. I am also wondering if there is such a thing as building
>
>
> an 'oven' using cement and/or concrete? I would like to build one,
>
>
> a white model if possible, [vice a black model], if such a plan is
>
>
> available and if the technology would be practical. We have a
>
>
> lot of rice hulls and not all that much firewood.
>
>
> I would be open to heating the oven with firewood and then
>
>
> maintaining the heat level with or by burning rice hulls. I have
>
>
> a lot of rice hulls and want to make the best use of the hulls.
>
>
> I currently use the wood ashes to make lye so I can make soap,
>
>
> but I have not used any ashes from rice hulls to make lye. I
>
>
> wonder if making lye with rice hulls is possible.
>
>
> The rice hull stoves we use are sort of a metal pail with a wire rack.
>
>
> I am looking for a stove, hopefully one that is hot, medium and cool,
>
>
> for cooking with rice hulls over a long number or years.
>
>
> On our island, rice hulls are still burned to 'get rid of them', and
>
>
> believe it or not, rice straw is still burned. I often ask neighboring
>
>
> farmers to bring me their straw and provide them a small bit of
>
>
> cash for doing so. We use the rice straw for making compost.
>
>
> We add some rice hulls to the compost. Most of the rice hulls
>
>
> are burned for fuel to cook with. We add the char from the cooking
>
>
> process to the garden. I am wondering if we are making the best
>
>
> use of the rice hulls and if the plans I am speaking of by post
>
>
> are available.
>
>
> Please inform, I am open to suggestions and direction.
>
>
> Blessings,
>
>
> JJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: " ajheggie at gmail.com " < ajheggie at gmail.com >
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves < stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks
>
>
>
> [Default] On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:37:30 -0400,"Crispin
> Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>> We are experimenting in Indonesia with draft-operated buoyancy balancers to limit the pull to the ideal even when combustion conditions change in the large wood stoves. They are easy and cheap to make. They are mounted on the side of the stack of all oil furnaces.
>
> We have used them on pellet stoves (which have their own id fans) to
> limit draught on an insulated ss chimney that rose through 4 floors. I
> wasn't entirely happy with the idea as it raised the possibility of
> the boiler room getting combustion products if the seal wasn't good, I
> would have been happier if the air was sucked from outside. In fact
> there was subsequently a problem but this was down to poor
> maintenance.
>
> AJH
>
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>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
> </blockquote>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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> </blockquote>
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>
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> </blockquote>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
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> </blockquote>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:57:19 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>, Hugh McLaughlin
> <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, Bob Fairchild <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> Message-ID: <51BDE05F.4080909 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Tom,
>
> The discussion was about coconut SHELLS. And I think that a 20 L
> "bucket" size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the
> "5G Toucan Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin. (5G is 5 gallons is 20
> L). And I ask Hugh to please point us to the best description /
> photos. This is a single-walled fuel canister.
>
> Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the
> Peko Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters. In a warm
> climate (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with
> single-wall units that should work fine. Have plenty of chimney to get
> good natural draft. There is no attempt to use the heat in these trial
> runs.
>
> When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider
> going larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is
> sufficient supply of coconut shells.
>
> I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes
> charcoal from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char
> to Europe (because the shell-char is considered to be of such
> quality). but I do not have that contact any longer.
>
> About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs. All of my
> attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
>
> Paul (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
>> Paul
>>
>> What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
>> dimensions and a fuel size?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
>> tmiles at trmiles.com <mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> Sent from mobile.
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu
>> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Michael and Rebecca,
>>>
>>> The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
>>> referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
>>>> the use of primative
>>>> pit kilns and their pollution.
>>>
>>> In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat. A simple TLUD
>>> could also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
>>>
>>> There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see
>>> that the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
>>>
>>> THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the
>>> TChar designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
>>>
>>> ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using
>>> some of that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website:www.drtlud.com
>>> On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
>>>> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
>>>> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
>>>> alternative fuels
>>>> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for
>>>> various cocnut products as fuel
>>>> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
>>>> had commented on the use of primative
>>>> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
>>>> hopefully to reduce some polluion
>>>> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive
>>>> for now she is going to be expanding her
>>>> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up
>>>> on Rebacca's travails
>>>> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
>>>> heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
>>>> .
>>>> Michael
>>>> Marshall Islands
>>>> --- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>>>> *To:* Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca,
>>>> Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in
>>>> a gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same
>>>> challenge to ignite and creating the pyrolytic front.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top
>>>> of your coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more
>>>> easily and ignite the chips, using woodshaveings or even gras,
>>>> as a starter.
>>>>
>>>> REMEMBER:
>>>> Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
>>>> fueling Chamber!
>>>> This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome
>>>> of your charcoal or biochar production.
>>>>
>>>> Good Luck.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Otto
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
>>>> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>> CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca,
>>>>
>>>> To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology
>>>> is highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes
>>>> them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with
>>>> densified wood pellets). But just make a slightly larger and
>>>> longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of
>>>> pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that
>>>> migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>>>>
>>>> How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>> I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows
>>>> the coconut so well!! So I presume you know very well the
>>>> native "tuba" drink from the flower shoot? Do take a look
>>>> at my photo album below :
>>>>
>>>> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>>>>
>>>> -- you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;
>>>> your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from
>>>> coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic bags). The
>>>> charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the bucong I
>>>> need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37
>>>> -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses
>>>> "oling" or coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will
>>>> find the big traditional kalans which can use firewood,
>>>> "palwa" or "bucong". The "bucong" is the fuel of the poorest
>>>> and the "bingka" or rice cake bakers; the "palwa" is bought
>>>> by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass; and the
>>>> "oling " is bought by the many food vendors (like "tocinos"
>>>> -- similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat
>>>> buns, boiling water for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and
>>>> households for broiling fish and meats (sinugba).
>>>> Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the
>>>> ground --a smoky process with a lot of energy going to
>>>> waste. Do you know a better way??
>>>> Rebecca
>>>> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
>>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject:* [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>>>> Dear Rebecca
>>>> As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
>>>> I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and
>>>> flower shoot and fronds and shell
>>>> Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized
>>>> pieces. After the nuts are husked
>>>> women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them
>>>> in the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
>>>> Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn
>>>> temperature make it very good for cooking rice.
>>>> BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>>>> I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra
>>>> drier to produce better copra with out bugs and mold
>>>> with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
>>>> In more recent years the has been some switch to your
>>>> "bucong" of course this mean no more shell left over.
>>>> Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would
>>>> be considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it
>>>> tough stuff. I find slicing off the leaflets in the field
>>>> and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into segments
>>>> and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like
>>>> pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths
>>>> are superb rocket stove fuel.
>>>> Michael
>>>> Marshall Islands
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>>>> *To:* ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>>>> *Cc:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ;
>>>> Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>>>> Hello Michael,
>>>> Thank you for your suggestions and question. My
>>>> comments are as follows:
>>>> 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate
>>>> ash from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of
>>>> Negros Oriental. The ash is free and my partners with
>>>> the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
>>>> Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the
>>>> ash to Dumaguete City. If this does not work, I'll
>>>> follow up on the TLUD route.
>>>> 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have
>>>> shown me their work with insulating bricks to form the
>>>> combustion chamber in Timor Leste. The insulating
>>>> bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
>>>> heavy duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the
>>>> combustion chamber and to support big cooking pots. I
>>>> still think that tiny insulating "clay marbles" between
>>>> the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
>>>> chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am
>>>> hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a way to produce
>>>> these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.
>>>> 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk -- it is a
>>>> by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production.
>>>> Every 3 months, the coconuts are harvested, cut into 2
>>>> halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make copra.
>>>> The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds
>>>> or storage buildings to make "bucong" -- the fuel we use
>>>> to fire the eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use
>>>> the "bucong" or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a
>>>> rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
>>>> machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a
>>>> combustion chamber opening as wide and as high
>>>> (5.5"x5.5") as that of the eco-kalan.
>>>> Rebecca Vermeer
>>>> Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
>>>> British Columbia, Canada
>>>> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
>>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>>>> Rebecca
>>>> Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the
>>>> low cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your
>>>> insulation.
>>>> Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire
>>>> your liner in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the
>>>> need to break
>>>> things up.
>>>> How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a
>>>> rocket stove?
>>>> Michael N Trevor
>>>> Marshall Islands
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>>>> *To:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>>>> Paul,
>>>> I currently use wood ash as insulating material
>>>> between the kalan and combustion chamber of the
>>>> eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
>>>> coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the
>>>> coconut tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less
>>>> firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
>>>> compared to traditional kalans and other traditional
>>>> cookstoves in Negros Oriental, Philippines. A
>>>> shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>>>> or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have
>>>> considered making an insulating material using a
>>>> 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in the form
>>>> of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces
>>>> after firing. I would fire the pellets or the
>>>> bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900 degrees
>>>> Celsius. Will there be significant formation of
>>>> cristobalite under these conditions? Would handling
>>>> the fired pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a
>>>> health hazard? Thanks,
>>>> Rebecca Vermeer
>>>> *From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
>>>> *To:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> ; larry
>>>> winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
>>>> stove life
>>>> Rebecca,
>>>> If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a
>>>> lot of cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this
>>>> problem should be minimized, provided channeling
>>>> does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
>>>> the particulate matter in the combustion gases. With
>>>> rice hull pellets in a TLUD we have a lot less
>>>> channeling, and a lot less particulate matter.
>>>> Therefore the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive
>>>> fuel for these and many other reasons.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Paul Olivier
>>>> On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer"
>>>> <ravermeer at telus.net <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Paul,
>>>> Larry just told me that the silica content of
>>>> rice hull ash is over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013
>>>> Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
>>>> Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.
>>>> Given your comment below regarding cristobalite
>>>> "which is a nasty carcinogen" and severely
>>>> hazardous to human health (see link below),
>>>> would you recommend the use of rice hull as a
>>>> household fuel for cookstoves?
>>>> Rebecca Vermeer
>>>> CRISTOBALITE LINK:
>>>> http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
>>>> *From:* Paul Olivier
>>>> <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
>>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
>>>> stove life
>>>> Paal,
>>>>
>>>> One thing I look for on my burner is that all
>>>> burner holes support a flame throughout the
>>>> process. If channeling occurs during the process
>>>> or if char is being burned as the process comes
>>>> to a close, then one can see burner holes that
>>>> do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is
>>>> being discharged from the burner holes, and of
>>>> course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed,
>>>> this represents a big inefficiency, since
>>>> combustion takes place far below the pot. When
>>>> this happens the sides of the reactor can easily
>>>> turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is
>>>> possible to spot the presence of CO2 if the top
>>>> of the reactor stays open and does not have a
>>>> lid with burner holes.
>>>>
>>>> If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting
>>>> in channeling, it can happen that only a few
>>>> holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
>>>> support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit
>>>> and shake the reactor, this problem is
>>>> immediately corrected. Also the effect of the
>>>> presence of CO2 can be spotted by the cook in
>>>> another way. The distribution of heat to the pan
>>>> is not even.
>>>>
>>>> Also many of the positive characteristics of
>>>> biochar are lost when biochar is combusted and
>>>> is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
>>>> biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and
>>>> the combustion of biochar takes place if the fan
>>>> is not turned off at the end of the process.
>>>> Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at
>>>> all the same thing when it comes to growing
>>>> plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain
>>>> cristobalite, which is a nasty carcinogen. Under
>>>> ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
>>>> handling this stuff.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo
>>>> <paaw at online.no <mailto:paaw at online.no>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> By end of flame the color of the char is red
>>>> to yellow, that indicate a temperature of
>>>> 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke,
>>>> complete combustion has taken place. Is that
>>>> not good for biochar?
>>>>
>>>> Regards Paal W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>>>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>>>> Dalat
>>>> Vietnam
>>>>
>>>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>>>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>>>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>>>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>>>
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:08:33 -0700
> From: "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> Message-ID: <3DE7BB1E424E44F89BCFDF1D258CD8E2 at RebeccaHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear ALL,
> Thank you for your suggestions ?all food for thought. I don?t think I will have a problem igniting and creating the pyrolytic front for the conversion of coconut shells into ?oling? (coconut charcoal) if I use an upper layer of ?bucong? ?coconut husk with the shell in it. I have fired my eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius over a 10 hour period without problem sustaining any temperature level. To answer Paul, I do not have any knowledge base on TLUD technology but I am learning from these discussions and hope to learn more at Stove camp. I think it has potential for coconut charcoal making but I doubt if any of the TLUD stoves to date can beat the all around cooking performance of the marathon running eco-kalan (yes, a clay rocket stove!!). By the way, the charcoal performs very well also in the eco-kalan. You just have to double up the parilla (fuel shelf) ?see video towards the end, Cooking with Oling at
> http://youtu.be/mRdwiWkVf30
>
> Thanks,
> Rebecca
> From: mtrevor
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:52 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Cc: Jon Anderson
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>
> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as alternative fuels
> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various cocnut products as fuel
> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She had commented on the use of primative
> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work hopefully to reduce some polluion
>
> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for now she is going to be expanding her
> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on Rebacca's travails
>
> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
> .
>
> Michael
> Marshall Islands
>
>
>
> --- Original Message -----
> From: Otto Formo
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist
> Cc: Jon Anderson
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
> Rebecca,
> Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to ignite and creating the pyrolytic front.
>
> I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite the chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
>
> REMEMBER:
> Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the fueling Chamber!
> This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your charcoal or biochar production.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Thanks
>
> Otto
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
>
> Rebecca,
>
> To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets). But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>
> How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.comOn 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>
> Michael,
> I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the coconut so well!! So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba? drink from the flower shoot? Do take a look at my photo album below :
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>
> ? you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together; your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic bags). The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37 -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses ?oling? or coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will find the big traditional kalans which can use firewood, ?palwa? or ?bucong?. The ?bucong? is the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers; the ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass; and the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? ? similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling water for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and meats (sinugba).
>
> Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground ?a smoky process with a lot of energy going to waste. Do you know a better way??
>
> Rebecca
> From: mtrevor
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
> Dear Rebecca
> As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
> I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot and fronds and shell
> Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces. After the nuts are husked
> women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
> Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature make it very good for cooking rice.
> BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>
> I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to produce better copra with out bugs and mold
> with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
> In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of course this mean no more shell left over.
> Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find slicing off the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket stove fuel.
>
>
> Michael
> Marshall Islands
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> To: ; Michael N. Trevor
> Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer ; Jon Anderson
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
> Hello Michael,
> Thank you for your suggestions and question. My comments are as follows:
> 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental. The ash is free and my partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete City. If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
>
> 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their work with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor Leste. The insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong, heavy duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and to support big cooking pots. I still think that tiny insulating ?clay marbles? between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.
>
> 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk ? it is a by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production. Every 3 months, the coconuts are harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make copra. The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or storage buildings to make ?bucong? ? the fuel we use to fire the eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber opening as wide and as high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
> Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
> British Columbia, Canada
>
> From: mtrevor
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
> Rebecca
> Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
> Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
> things up.
>
> How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
>
> Michael N Trevor
> Marshall Islands
> From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> To: Paul Olivier
> Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
> Paul,
> I currently use wood ash as insulating material between the kalan and combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal, coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves in Negros Oriental, Philippines. A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>
> or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have considered making an insulating material using a 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after firing. I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900 degrees Celsius. Will there be significant formation of cristobalite under these conditions? Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a health hazard? Thanks,
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
>
> From: Paul Olivier
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
> To: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org ; larry winiarski
> Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
> Rebecca,
> If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized, provided channeling does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the particulate matter in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD we have a lot less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other reasons.
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
> On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Paul,
> Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the Philippines which used rice hull for fuel. Given your comment below regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely hazardous to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use of rice hull as a household fuel for cookstoves?
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
>
> CRISTOBALITE LINK:
> http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
> From: Paul Olivier
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
> Paal,
>
>
> One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes support a flame throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the process or if char is being burned as the process comes to a close, then one can see burner holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is being discharged from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed, this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion takes place far below the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor can easily turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot the presence of CO2 if the top of the reactor stays open and does not have a lid with burner holes.
>
>
> If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in channeling, it can happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor, this problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of CO2 can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to the pan is not even.
>
>
> Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost when biochar is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of biochar takes place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it comes to growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite, which is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should be handling this stuff.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>
> Ron
>
> By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that indicate a temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke, complete combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
>
> Regards Paal W
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:11:21 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Paul Anderson'" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: 'Jon Anderson' <jonnygms at gmail.com>, 'Hugh McLaughlin'
> <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, 'Bob Fairchild' <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> Message-ID: <007c01ce6ab4$8788f380$969ada80$@trmiles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"
>
> Thanks Paul. That sounds like a good place to start.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:57 AM
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Cc: Tom Miles Easystreet; Jon Anderson; Hugh McLaughlin; Bob Fairchild
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> The discussion was about coconut SHELLS. And I think that a 20 L "bucket"
> size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the "5G Toucan
> Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin. (5G is 5 gallons is 20 L). And I ask
> Hugh to please point us to the best description / photos. This is a
> single-walled fuel canister.
>
> Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the Peko
> Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters. In a warm climate
> (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with single-wall units
> that should work fine. Have plenty of chimney to get good natural draft.
> There is no attempt to use the heat in these trial runs.
>
> When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider going
> larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is sufficient supply
> of coconut shells.
>
> I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes charcoal
> from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char to Europe
> (because the shell-char is considered to be of such quality). but I do
> not have that contact any longer.
>
> About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs. All of my
> attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
>
> Paul (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
> dimensions and a fuel size?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
>
> tmiles at trmiles.com
>
> Sent from mobile.
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear Michael and Rebecca,
>
> The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
> referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
>
>
>
> the use of primative
>
> pit kilns and their pollution.
>
>
> In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat. A simple TLUD could
> also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
>
> There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see that
> the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
>
> THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the TChar
> designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
>
> ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using some of
> that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
>
> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
>
> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as alternative
> fuels
>
> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
> cocnut products as fuel
>
> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She had
> commented on the use of primative
>
> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
> hopefully to reduce some polluion
>
>
>
> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for now
> she is going to be expanding her
>
> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on Rebacca's
> travails
>
>
>
> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its heat
> and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
>
> .
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> Marshall Islands
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Original Message -----
>
> From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
>
>
> Rebecca,
> Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a gasifier
> unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to ignite and
> creating the pyrolytic front.
>
> I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
> coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite the
> chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
>
> REMEMBER:
> Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the fueling
> Chamber!
> This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
> charcoal or biochar production.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Thanks
>
> Otto
>
> _____
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
> Rebecca,
>
> To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is highly
> appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
> difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
> But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to get
> the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front
> that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>
> How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the coconut so
> well!! So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba? drink from the
> flower shoot? Do take a look at my photo album below :
>
>
>
>
> <https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/588951149628016
> 0113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
> 113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>
> - you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together; your preferred
> frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells (inside sacks
> and plastic bags). The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the
> bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37 -the
> small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses ?oling? or
> coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will find the big traditional
> kalans which can use firewood, ?palwa? or ?bucong?. The ?bucong? is
> the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers; the
> ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass; and
> the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? -
> similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling water
> for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and
> meats (sinugba).
>
>
>
> Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground -a smoky
> process with a lot of energy going to waste. Do you know a better way??
>
>
>
> Rebecca
>
> From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>
>
>
> Dear Rebecca
>
> As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
>
> I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot and
> fronds and shell
>
> Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces. After the
> nuts are husked
>
> women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the yards. It
> is exhausting back breaking work
>
> Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature make it
> very good for cooking rice.
>
> BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>
>
>
> I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
> produce better copra with out bugs and mold
>
> with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
>
> In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of course
> this mean no more shell left over.
>
> Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be considered
> a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find slicing off
> the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into
> segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces feed
> into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket stove fuel.
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> Marshall Islands
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>
> To: ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>
> Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ; Jon Anderson
> <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
>
>
> Hello Michael,
>
> Thank you for your suggestions and question. My comments are as follows:
>
> 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from the foot of
> Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental. The ash is free and my
> partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
> Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete
> City. If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
>
>
>
> 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their work
> with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor Leste. The
> insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong, heavy
> duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and to
> support big cooking pots. I still think that tiny insulating ?clay
> marbles? between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
> chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am hopeful Rolf and
> ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or pebbles
> cheaply.
>
>
>
> 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk - it is a by-product of COPRA
> (mature coconut meat) production. Every 3 months, the coconuts are
> harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
> copra. The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or
> storage buildings to make ?bucong? - the fuel we use to fire the eco-
> kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk with
> shell for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
> machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber
> opening as wide and as high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
>
>
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
>
> Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
>
> British Columbia, Canada
>
>
>
> From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
>
>
> Rebecca
>
> Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low cristobalite
> "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
>
> Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in
> multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
>
> things up.
>
>
>
> How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
>
>
>
> Michael N Trevor
>
> Marshall Islands
>
> From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>
> To: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> org
>
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
> I currently use wood ash as insulating material between the kalan and
> combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
> coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut tree). The eco-
> kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
> compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves in Negros
> Oriental, Philippines. A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>
>
>
> or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have considered making an
> insulating material using a 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in
> the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after firing.
> I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900
> degrees Celsius. Will there be significant formation of cristobalite under
> these conditions? Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of the
> bricks be a health hazard? Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
>
>
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
>
> To: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>
> Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> org ; larry winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
>
>
> Rebecca,
> If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of cristobalite
> formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized, provided channeling
> does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the particulate matter
> in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD we have a lot
> less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice hull
> pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other reasons.
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
> On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Paul,
>
> Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is over 90%.
> At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
> Philippines which used rice hull for fuel. Given your comment below
> regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely
> hazardous to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use of
> rice hull as a household fuel for cookstoves?
>
>
>
> Rebecca Vermeer
>
>
>
> CRISTOBALITE LINK:
>
> http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
>
>
>
> From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>
>
>
> Paal,
>
> One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes support a flame
> throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the process or if char
> is being burned as the process comes to a close, then one can see burner
> holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is being discharged
> from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed,
> this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion takes place far below
> the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor can easily turn red hot
> and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot the presence of CO2 if
> the top of the reactor stays open and does not have a lid with burner holes.
>
> If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in channeling, it can
> happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
> support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor, this
> problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of CO2
> can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to the
> pan is not even.
>
> Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost when biochar
> is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and biochar
> takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of biochar takes
> place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice hull ash
> and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it comes to
> growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite, which
> is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
> handling this stuff.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>
> Ron
>
> By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that indicate a
> temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke, complete
> combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
>
> Regards Paal W
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
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