[Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
Art Donnelly
art.donnelly at seachar.org
Mon Jun 17 13:23:21 CDT 2013
Hi all,
I want to provide some information on the ability of ND TLUDs to utilize
coconut waste as an input material as well as comment on the relationship
between the temp. at which char is produced and the issues of yield and
surface area.
Coconut shell and coir burn very well and very cleanly in the ND Estufa
Finca TLUD.
Obviously the dense shell is preferred for it's longer burning time, but
the mix gives us a great biochar, which the nursery men seem to like.
Perhaps this works well in this stove because we use more secondary air
than I see in some other similar stoves? As with other fuels, we can
continue to add this material to the stove as it burns, to extend cooking
time. This strategy does result in a lower yield of char, than the straight
load and burn to completion method.
When we load the stove, light it and run it until the flame color changes
we routinely yield 30-33% of the the original dry weight of the input
material as biochar.
I monitor both our Estufa Finca stoves and 55-gallon drum J-RO kilns with a
K-type digital probe thermometer. The stoves pyrolysis front produces char
between 500-700c the J-RO between 600-800c. I have had Hugh McLaughlin
characterize approx. 14 samples of different material made in these and
material processed in retorts with a temperature not exceeding 450c. The
biochar from the TLUD type devices all have greater available surface area
than the same materials produced at the lower temperature range. Wood,
bamboo and coconut shell all come in around 400m2/g. Close to the low end
for activated charcoal. These chars are giving us good results in the soil
when mixed with compost or inoculated with EM. The reduction in tars in the
higher temp. chars is a plus.
Art.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:57 PM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:
> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
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>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
> 2. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (M. Nurhuda)
> 3. Re: Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> (Carefreeland at aol.com)
> 4. Re: Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal? (Tom Miles)
> 5. Re: Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal? (Josh Kearns)
> 6. Re: Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal? (Paul Olivier)
> 7. TLUD theory -- Fuel Bed Temperatures (Julien Winter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:34:49 -0400
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> To: "'M. Nurhuda'" <mnurhuda at ub.ac.id>, "'Discussion of biomass
> cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> Message-ID: <03ba01ce6aea$18bec4d0$4a3c4e70$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Nurhuda
>
> It looks like a good way to get process heat. Can it run continuously for
> several days? If so it could be used to fire clay products.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> Perhaps gasifier/burner like this (see attached picture) can be used to
> burn
> coconut husk easily.
>
> It is an open-top gasifier, such that user can easily add fuel from the
> top.
> I also employed semi cyclonic system to filter the dusk.
>
> That was three years ago.
>
>
> Regards
> M. Nurhuda
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 06:54:19 +0700
> From: "M. Nurhuda" <mnurhuda at ub.ac.id>
> To: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
> Cc: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> Message-ID:
> <84f6d643f0c6ed3f3c02ce8ecd03e763.squirrel at webmail.ub.ac.id>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear Crispin and all,
>
> Probably yes, since adding fuel can easily be done. But in trial, I just
> run for 4 hours.
>
> Regards
> M. Nurhuda
>
>
>
> > Dear Nurhuda
> >
> > It looks like a good way to get process heat. Can it run continuously for
> > several days? If so it could be used to fire clay products.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Perhaps gasifier/burner like this (see attached picture) can be used to
> > burn
> > coconut husk easily.
> >
> > It is an open-top gasifier, such that user can easily add fuel from the
> > top.
> > I also employed semi cyclonic system to filter the dusk.
> >
> > That was three years ago.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > M. Nurhuda
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:34:53 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Carefreeland at aol.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> Message-ID: <4b76b.781428fd.3eefb3ad at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Tom, Tom, Listers,
> I would think that there would be a reduction in tars in the higher
> temp chars. This might have some advantages in less surface tension of
> water.
> The tars, on the other hand may have some beneficial use in reducing,
> insects, fungus or bacteria growth in chars used for soil enhancement. The
> chars created in a gasifier or less efficient system such as an open fire
> or
> various older systems of char making would all contain more ash. The extra
> ash
> would have benefits as a nearly balanced fertilizer in the soil. Minus
> only nitrogen.
> It surprises me that higher temp chars would have a lower surface
> area. Has anybody studied the relationship between the time it takes to
> cook
> the char and the amount of surface area created? I would think the higher
> temperatures and faster cooking would rupture the cell membranes violently
> and to a greater extent from flashing steam. Would this create more or
> less
> surface area? Would carbonized cells have a greater CEC with tiny holes
> in
> them from slow cooking or larger more accessible ruptures from fast
> cooking? Would some cells not rupture completely? or be blocked in large
> chunks
> of charcoal from acting to absorb water and minerals?
> Obviously, the type of biomass would also be a great variable in the
> surface area equation as cells rupture based on their design. Old
> gunpowder
> makers knew this from experience that is why low ash, high surface area
> Willow and Dogwood were favored. The Dogwood for dense, high octane
> powder and
> the Willow for light, fast burninig powder.
> I think that nature already has figured this out in a beautiful way-
> as usual. Char for soil is best created in hot but inefficient forest
> fires.
> Char for use as a fuel for man is best created with a high yield and lots
> of hydrocarbons in a closed retort system. All other uses fall on a scale
> in between. The Biblical saying "Render unto God what is God's" comes to
> mind. And you thought it was just about taxes!
> I like to burn my brush in a big cut open tank in the garden. All the
> ash flies out into the air and lands well distributed all over the garden.
> This saves me the task of spreading the ash. In forest fires the majority
> of the char forms underground or under ash. Again, Nature is still one or
> many steps ahead of us.
> Only questions, no answers as usual. No lab or even a greenhouse
> anymore to experiment with. Have fun all you college types. Let me know
> what
> you find. I do still read some of the letters now and then.
> Keep Charring and Stoving,
>
> Dan Dimiduk
> From the peanut gallery.
>
> In a message dated 6/16/2013 4:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tmiles at trmiles.com writes:
>
> Stephen Joseph should comment on the target "optimum" range set out by
> Lehmann and others of 450-550 C which seems to have guided most research.
> According to their work an increase in temperature to 500-700C would
> appear
> to result in slightly lower yield and surface area. pH and CEC would be
> about the same. Trials with different plants and soils since this early
> work
> may tell us a different story.
>
> We have had good results with limited use of higher temperature pyrolysis
> and gasifier chars, in the 500-700C range or even higher, when used in
> erosion control, filtration, vermiculture and soil-less media. The main
> drawback of a gasifier char is a lower char yield.
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130616/1ecb19a0/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 17:46:38 -0700
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> Message-ID: <000601ce6af4$20da1250$628e36f0$@trmiles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dan,
>
>
>
> Since plants can't read we have to watch and listen to them to find out
> what
> works. Unfortunately we're often better at talking (prescribing) than
> listening. Thanks for your observations.
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> Carefreeland at aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 5:35 PM
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
>
>
>
> Tom, Tom, Listers,
>
> I would think that there would be a reduction in tars in the higher
> temp
> chars. This might have some advantages in less surface tension of water.
> The
> tars, on the other hand may have some beneficial use in reducing, insects,
> fungus or bacteria growth in chars used for soil enhancement. The chars
> created in a gasifier or less efficient system such as an open fire or
> various older systems of char making would all contain more ash. The extra
> ash would have benefits as a nearly balanced fertilizer in the soil. Minus
> only nitrogen.
>
> It surprises me that higher temp chars would have a lower surface area.
> Has anybody studied the relationship between the time it takes to cook the
> char and the amount of surface area created? I would think the higher
> temperatures and faster cooking would rupture the cell membranes violently
> and to a greater extent from flashing steam. Would this create more or less
> surface area? Would carbonized cells have a greater CEC with tiny holes in
> them from slow cooking or larger more accessible ruptures from fast
> cooking?
> Would some cells not rupture completely? or be blocked in large chunks of
> charcoal from acting to absorb water and minerals?
>
> Obviously, the type of biomass would also be a great variable in the
> surface area equation as cells rupture based on their design. Old gunpowder
> makers knew this from experience that is why low ash, high surface area
> Willow and Dogwood were favored. The Dogwood for dense, high octane powder
> and the Willow for light, fast burninig powder.
>
> I think that nature already has figured this out in a beautiful way- as
> usual. Char for soil is best created in hot but inefficient forest fires.
> Char for use as a fuel for man is best created with a high yield and lots
> of
> hydrocarbons in a closed retort system. All other uses fall on a scale in
> between. The Biblical saying "Render unto God what is God's" comes to mind.
> And you thought it was just about taxes!
>
> I like to burn my brush in a big cut open tank in the garden. All the
> ash flies out into the air and lands well distributed all over the garden.
> This saves me the task of spreading the ash. In forest fires the majority
> of
> the char forms underground or under ash. Again, Nature is still one or many
> steps ahead of us.
>
> Only questions, no answers as usual. No lab or even a greenhouse
> anymore
> to experiment with. Have fun all you college types. Let me know what you
> find. I do still read some of the letters now and then.
>
> Keep Charring and Stoving,
>
>
>
> Dan Dimiduk
>
> From the peanut gallery.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/16/2013 4:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tmiles at trmiles.com writes:
>
> Stephen Joseph should comment on the target "optimum" range set out by
> Lehmann and others of 450-550 C which seems to have guided most research.
> According to their work an increase in temperature to 500-700C would appear
> to result in slightly lower yield and surface area. pH and CEC would be
> about the same. Trials with different plants and soils since this early
> work
> may tell us a different story.
>
> We have had good results with limited use of higher temperature pyrolysis
> and gasifier chars, in the 500-700C range or even higher, when used in
> erosion control, filtration, vermiculture and soil-less media. The main
> drawback of a gasifier char is a lower char yield.
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130616/acf13194/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:49:27 -0400
> From: Josh Kearns <yeah.yeah.right.on at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+tERD7TRQ2CkmQi=
> UA3xYrj6-8FcKNH5qQd61-cq4tkSey6zA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> High draft/high temp. chars are superior from a sorption perspective:
> http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/October2012Kearns.pdf
>
> The lower mass yields are more than offset by greater-than-proportional
> increase in sorption capacity. For water treatment/water quality
> applications 85-90%, or even a little more, mass loss is optimal.
>
> We'll have several papers coming out over the next couple of years filling
> in a lot of the details on research into a lot of the questions that have
> been brought up by Dan and others here....sorry, everyone, academic
> publishing is so painfully slow.....
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:34 PM, <Carefreeland at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > **
> > Tom, Tom, Listers,
> > I would think that there would be a reduction in tars in the higher
> > temp chars. This might have some advantages in less surface tension of
> > water. The tars, on the other hand may have some beneficial use in
> > reducing, insects, fungus or bacteria growth in chars used for soil
> > enhancement. The chars created in a gasifier or less efficient system
> such
> > as an open fire or various older systems of char making would all contain
> > more ash. The extra ash would have benefits as a nearly balanced
> fertilizer
> > in the soil. Minus only nitrogen.
> > It surprises me that higher temp chars would have a lower surface
> > area. Has anybody studied the relationship between the time it takes to
> > cook the char and the amount of surface area created? I would think the
> > higher temperatures and faster cooking would rupture the cell membranes
> > violently and to a greater extent from flashing steam. Would this create
> > more or less surface area? Would carbonized cells have a greater CEC
> with
> > tiny holes in them from slow cooking or larger more accessible ruptures
> > from fast cooking? Would some cells not rupture completely? or be
> blocked
> > in large chunks of charcoal from acting to absorb water and minerals?
> > Obviously, the type of biomass would also be a great variable in the
> > surface area equation as cells rupture based on their design. Old
> gunpowder
> > makers knew this from experience that is why low ash, high surface area
> > Willow and Dogwood were favored. The Dogwood for dense, high octane
> powder
> > and the Willow for light, fast burninig powder.
> > I think that nature already has figured this out in a beautiful way-
> > as usual. Char for soil is best created in hot but inefficient forest
> > fires. Char for use as a fuel for man is best created with a high yield
> and
> > lots of hydrocarbons in a closed retort system. All other uses fall on a
> > scale in between. The Biblical saying "Render unto God what is God's"
> comes
> > to mind. And you thought it was just about taxes!
> > I like to burn my brush in a big cut open tank in the garden. All the
> > ash flies out into the air and lands well distributed all over the
> garden.
> > This saves me the task of spreading the ash. In forest fires the majority
> > of the char forms underground or under ash. Again, Nature is still one or
> > many steps ahead of us.
> > Only questions, no answers as usual. No lab or even a greenhouse
> > anymore to experiment with. Have fun all you college types. Let me know
> > what you find. I do still read some of the letters now and then.
> > Keep Charring and Stoving,
> >
> > Dan Dimiduk
> > From the peanut gallery.
> >
> > In a message dated 6/16/2013 4:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > tmiles at trmiles.com writes:
> >
> > Stephen Joseph should comment on the target "optimum" range set out by
> > Lehmann and others of 450-550 C which seems to have guided most research.
> > According to their work an increase in temperature to 500-700C would
> appear
> > to result in slightly lower yield and surface area. pH and CEC would be
> > about the same. Trials with different plants and soils since this early
> > work
> > may tell us a different story.
> >
> > We have had good results with limited use of higher temperature pyrolysis
> > and gasifier chars, in the 500-700C range or even higher, when used in
> > erosion control, filtration, vermiculture and soil-less media. The main
> > drawback of a gasifier char is a lower char yield.
> >
> > Tom Miles
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh Kearns
> PhD Candidate, Environmental Engineering
> University of Colorado-Boulder
> Visiting Researcher, North Carolina State University
>
> Director of Science
> Aqueous Solutions
> www.aqsolutions.org
>
> Mobile: 720 989 3959
> Skype: joshkearns
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:34:06 +0700
> From: Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAOreFvbQVr+AXUsCzo8oNAMnhR_NXX41EugurCyh_hc0yWGuqw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Tom,
>
> We have had excellent results in growing a large variety of plants (in
> Vietnam, Lao, Cambodia and Colombia) with rice hull biochar produced at
> temperatures much higher than 450 C. Our goal is not to create an ideal
> biochar in large-scale dedicated ovens. Our goal is to provide high-grade
> heat to small households and businesses for cooking meals, boiling water,
> drying paint and so forth. The big value here is in the syngas. The biochar
> produced is a by-product. But in saying it is a by-product, I do not want
> to denigrate its importance. Its sale is of vital importance in lowering
> the cost of fuel down to zero and beyond.So we have to strike a balance
> between making syngas and making biochar.
>
> I talked a while back to a mycologist who was eager to make biochar to mix
> with AM fungi for growing of coffee seedlings. He wanted to spend about
> $100,000 US on a large-scale, dedicated biochar plant. I asked him what he
> intended to do with the syngas. He replied that he would burn it. I
> suggested instead that he find about ten small businesses currently burning
> bottled gas, similar to the paint-drying facility that I had set up in
> Saigon. I suggested that he buy a pellet machine and supply pelleted rice
> hulls or pelleted coconut dust to these ten business free-of-charge in
> exchange for all of their biochar they would produce. What a win/win for
> both sides! He frowned on the idea. He needed to spend the $100,000 in
> grant money that he was sure to get, and he was hell bent on flaring the
> syngas. I then asked: but what if the biochar produced in these small-scale
> stoves would work well together with AM fungi? He frowned once again and
> said that he was not interested in such a "simplistic" approach.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul Olivier
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Stephen Joseph should comment on the target "optimum" range set out by
> > Lehmann and others of 450-550 C which seems to have guided most research.
> > According to their work an increase in temperature to 500-700C would
> appear
> > to result in slightly lower yield and surface area. pH and CEC would be
> > about the same. Trials with different plants and soils since this early
> > work
> > may tell us a different story.
> >
> > We have had good results with limited use of higher temperature pyrolysis
> > and gasifier chars, in the 500-700C range or even higher, when used in
> > erosion control, filtration, vermiculture and soil-less media. The main
> > drawback of a gasifier char is a lower char yield.
> >
> > Tom Miles
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Thomas Reed
> > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:54 PM
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Cc: Helena_chum at nrel.gov; Bob Evans
> > Subject: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?
> >
> > Dear Biochar developers;
> >
> > Conventional charcoal making (with an external heat source around a
> vessel)
> > typically reach temperatures of 300 C, at which point the biomass will
> > Autochar itself up to 400-450C, an exothermic reaction.
> >
> > When I make charcoal using the cellulose combustion to heat the ~20%
> > remaining charcoal, temperatures are in the 500-700 C range, depending on
> > the insulation of the vessel and the combustion rate (superficial
> > velocity).
> >
> >
> > It is hard for me to believe that no one has commented here (that I've
> > seen)
> > on the advantage or disadvantage of the higher temperature charcoals.
> >
> > Any and all comments welcome.
> >
> > Tom Reed
> >
> > Thomas B Reed
> > 280 Hardwick Rd
> > Barre, Ma 01005
> > 508-353-7841
> >
> > On Jun 16, 2013, at 2:00 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.orgwrote
> :
> >
> > > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Information shared on this Listserve (Timothy Roy Longwell)
> > > 2. Re: Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens] (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> > > 3. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Paul Anderson)
> > > 4. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > > (Rebecca A. Vermeer)
> > > 5. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Tom Miles)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:21:52 +0000
> > > From: Timothy Roy Longwell <tlongwell at zamorano.edu>
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Subject: [Stoves] Information shared on this Listserve
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <EC67B308F6641743886918374ACE4076507EE159 at zamo-mail-02.zamorano.edu
> >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Tom and Paul recently commented on the value of the information shared
> on
> > this Listserve and they had a vision of condensing and publishing (before
> > Tom retires) the combined experience and knowledge of the exchanges
> stored
> > in the archives.
> > >
> > > I think that it would be fantastic if the GACC funded a consolidation
> of
> > this listserve information.
> > >
> > > Chapters on the themes discussed on this list (fuels, combustion, user
> > preferences, durability, emissions, health, etc - or however it is
> > organized) would be extremely valuable and a great "snapshot" of where we
> > are and what is known.
> > >
> > > Kindest regards,
> > >
> > > Timothy Roy Longwell
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
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> > ttachments/20130616/d4d94283/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:42:36 +0000 (UTC)
> > > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Stephen Joseph
> > > <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: Biochar-production <Biochar-production at yahoogroups.com>,
> > > biochar-soils <biochar-soils at yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
> > > Message-ID:
> > >
> > <
> >
> 803054761.289654.1371393756883.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.com
> > cast.net>
> > >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Stephen: stove list, adding two biochar lists
> > >
> > > Three question areas - because I sense several major - maybe new -
> > recommendations from you below.
> > >
> > > 1. I met Mr/Dr Khoi at the GACC meeting and thought his was a TLUD
> > design.
> > Can you point me at a site where the design is drawn and explained? (
> have
> > looked a bit, unsuccessfully)
> > >
> > > 2. I have been long impressed by your use of solid state theory with
> > biochar - but I had previously thought you were talking only about
> changes
> > after char placement in the soil.
> > > - Have you written up this idea of coating the biomass input to a
> > pyrolyzer with a clay to improve CEC?
> > > - Any experimental data yet in the field for char with and without a
> clay
> > coating during firing?
> > > - If one was making pellets out of almost anything, would you recommend
> > always a clay binder? (This has to be cheap.)
> > >
> > > 3. There are more than a few biochar proponents arguing for higher
> > temperature char production (more adsorption/absorption - 700-800 C?).
> You
> > have long preferred lower temperatures I believe.(with or without clay).
> > Care to suggest an optimum T?
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stephen Joseph" <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:29:34 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Paul
> > >
> > > No we are pyrolysing them in the outer chamber so they are not
> subjected
> > to direct combustion.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mr Khoi's stove is not a TLUD. I would not recommend people use TLUD
> > stoves for rice husks unless they cover the husks with wet clay and then
> > dry
> > the clay. This coating has the advantage of keeping the temperature down
> > and
> > also activating the surface
> > >
> > >
> > > In any of my TLUD work I try to get people to coat their biomass in an
> > iron rick clay to improve both CEC and yields.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen,
> > >
> > > Are you burning rice hulls at a temperature less than 450 C?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Stephen Joseph <
> joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > > I paul
> > >
> > >
> > > Not if you use the design with an inner fire box and an outer pyrolysis
> > chamber as is Mr Khois design. In fact it is the main reason why I
> > recommended this design configuration and sizing to PED.
> > >
> > >
> > > We did a large research project with the Australia Government research
> > arm
> > ACIAR to optimise the design.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have measurde the rice husk temperature in this outer chamber and it
> > stays pretty uniform at around 450C after the initial drying and
> > torrefaction phases.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But, Stephen, temperatures can rise above 900 C when burning rice
> hulls.
> > > If we operate at low temperatures (450 C) in burning rice hulls, are we
> > not inevitably making a lot of smoke?
> > >
> > > Even at relatively low average combustion temperatures, will there not
> be
> > a tendency for hot zones to form within the combustor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul Olivier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Stephen Joseph <
> joey.stephen at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > > All
> > >
> > >
> > > There has been a lot of work done on formation of crystobalite. The
> rate
> > of formation is both a function of time and temerature
> > >
> > >
> > > If you have low temperatures (450c) and short times (<60 minutes)you
> wont
> > produce it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mehta in India did a lot of work on this in the 80's and published a
> book
> > on rice husk ash cement if I remember correctly
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > I found this news report:
> > >
> >
> >
> http://www.ipsnews.net/2009/10/thailand-renewable-energy-not-so-clean-and-gr
> > een-after-all/
> > >
> > > Not such a nice story.
> > > I do not think it's a good idea to burn rice hulls or rice straw in
> > either
> > power plants, brick kilns or household stoves.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Olivier < paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > I have read in many articles that cristobalite can form at temperatures
> > of
> > about 900 C.
> > > http://www.jicosh.gr.jp/old/niih/en/indu_hel/2004/pdf/42-2-24.pdf
> > > In burning rice hulls, temperatures can easily exceed 900 C.
> > > If cristobalite forms and is breathed in, human health is severely
> > impacted: silicosis, tuberculosis, cancer and so forth.
> > >
> > > Silica (SiO2) is a constituent of the ash produced by the combustion
> > process. Different
> > > types of biomass fuels contain different quantities of silica. The
> > International Agency for
> > > Research on Cancer has classified silica as a human carcinogen. Long
> term
> > inhalation
> > > of airborne silica particulates can cause lung cancer or other related
> > health problems.
> > > As rice hull ash contains high levels of silica (~15%), its use as a
> > biomass fuel
> > > presumably increases the risk of developing silicosis-related
> illnesses,
> > and care should
> > > be used in handling the ash.
> > >
> >
> >
> http://www.reap-canada.com/online_library/IntDev/id_eco_sugarcane/7%20Strate
> > gies%20for.pdf
> > >
> > > Silica (SiO2) is the main mineral component of rice husk ash (RHA)
> (85-90
> > per cent). It carries serious health risks, particularly to the
> > > respiratory system.
> > > http://www.dhf.uu.se/pdffiler/cc7/cc7_web_art4.pdf
> > >
> > > Cristobalite can be present in both the ash and fly ash. If someone
> > designs a stove to burn rice hulls or rice straw, he has to be sure that
> > temperatures remain below the point of cristobalite formation.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Tom Miles < tmiles at trmiles.com >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > <blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After discussing rice hull combustion and gasification at some length
> you
> > are now saying this is dangerous. Why, specifically? You have discussed
> the
> > potential to emit cristobalite but there is no evidence of the hazard it
> > presents. What evidence do you have that burning rice husks or rice straw
> > is
> > a health hazard?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Stoves [mailto: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Paul Olivier
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:56 PM
> > > To: JJ Claire; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > JJ,
> > >
> > > I would not recommend that you burn rice hulls ir rice straw.
> > >
> > > In many cases this is quite dangerous.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, JJ Claire < pugoclaire at yahoo.com >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings one and all,
> > >
> > >
> > > I visit the Philippines often and usually stay about six months a year.
> > >
> > >
> > > I often use a rice hull stove. I would like to get a plan to build a
> > >
> > >
> > > concrete stove. I am also wondering if there is such a thing as
> building
> > >
> > >
> > > an 'oven' using cement and/or concrete? I would like to build one,
> > >
> > >
> > > a white model if possible, [vice a black model], if such a plan is
> > >
> > >
> > > available and if the technology would be practical. We have a
> > >
> > >
> > > lot of rice hulls and not all that much firewood.
> > >
> > >
> > > I would be open to heating the oven with firewood and then
> > >
> > >
> > > maintaining the heat level with or by burning rice hulls. I have
> > >
> > >
> > > a lot of rice hulls and want to make the best use of the hulls.
> > >
> > >
> > > I currently use the wood ashes to make lye so I can make soap,
> > >
> > >
> > > but I have not used any ashes from rice hulls to make lye. I
> > >
> > >
> > > wonder if making lye with rice hulls is possible.
> > >
> > >
> > > The rice hull stoves we use are sort of a metal pail with a wire rack.
> > >
> > >
> > > I am looking for a stove, hopefully one that is hot, medium and cool,
> > >
> > >
> > > for cooking with rice hulls over a long number or years.
> > >
> > >
> > > On our island, rice hulls are still burned to 'get rid of them', and
> > >
> > >
> > > believe it or not, rice straw is still burned. I often ask neighboring
> > >
> > >
> > > farmers to bring me their straw and provide them a small bit of
> > >
> > >
> > > cash for doing so. We use the rice straw for making compost.
> > >
> > >
> > > We add some rice hulls to the compost. Most of the rice hulls
> > >
> > >
> > > are burned for fuel to cook with. We add the char from the cooking
> > >
> > >
> > > process to the garden. I am wondering if we are making the best
> > >
> > >
> > > use of the rice hulls and if the plans I am speaking of by post
> > >
> > >
> > > are available.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please inform, I am open to suggestions and direction.
> > >
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > >
> > >
> > > JJ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: " ajheggie at gmail.com " < ajheggie at gmail.com >
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 5:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Default] On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:37:30 -0400,"Crispin
> > > Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > >> We are experimenting in Indonesia with draft-operated buoyancy
> balancers
> > to limit the pull to the ideal even when combustion conditions change in
> > the
> > large wood stoves. They are easy and cheap to make. They are mounted on
> the
> > side of the stack of all oil furnaces.
> > >
> > > We have used them on pellet stoves (which have their own id fans) to
> > > limit draught on an insulated ss chimney that rose through 4 floors. I
> > > wasn't entirely happy with the idea as it raised the possibility of
> > > the boiler room getting combustion products if the seal wasn't good, I
> > > would have been happier if the air was sucked from outside. In fact
> > > there was subsequently a problem but this was down to poor
> > > maintenance.
> > >
> > > AJH
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
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> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
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> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > </blockquote>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
> > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > <
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a
> > ttachments/20130616/0eaaa853/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:57:19 -0500
> > > From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>, Hugh McLaughlin
> > > <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, Bob Fairchild <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > > Message-ID: <51BDE05F.4080909 at ilstu.edu>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > The discussion was about coconut SHELLS. And I think that a 20 L
> > > "bucket" size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the
> > > "5G Toucan Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin. (5G is 5 gallons is 20
> > > L). And I ask Hugh to please point us to the best description /
> > > photos. This is a single-walled fuel canister.
> > >
> > > Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the
> > > Peko Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters. In a warm
> > > climate (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with
> > > single-wall units that should work fine. Have plenty of chimney to
> get
> > > good natural draft. There is no attempt to use the heat in these
> trial
> > > runs.
> > >
> > > When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider
> > > going larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is
> > > sufficient supply of coconut shells.
> > >
> > > I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes
> > > charcoal from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char
> > > to Europe (because the shell-char is considered to be of such
> > > quality). but I do not have that contact any longer.
> > >
> > > About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs. All of my
> > > attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
> > >
> > > Paul (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >> What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
> > >> dimensions and a fuel size?
> > >>
> > >> Tom
> > >>
> > >> T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
> > >> tmiles at trmiles.com <mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
> > >> Sent from mobile.
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Dear Michael and Rebecca,
> > >>>
> > >>> The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
> > >>> referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
> > >>>> the use of primative
> > >>>> pit kilns and their pollution.
> > >>>
> > >>> In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat. A simple TLUD
> > >>> could also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
> > >>>
> > >>> There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see
> > >>> that the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
> > >>>
> > >>> THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the
> > >>> TChar designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
> > >>>
> > >>> ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using
> > >>> some of that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > >>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >>> Website:www.drtlud.com
> > >>> On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
> > >>>> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
> > >>>> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
> > >>>> alternative fuels
> > >>>> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for
> > >>>> various cocnut products as fuel
> > >>>> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
> > >>>> had commented on the use of primative
> > >>>> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
> > >>>> hopefully to reduce some polluion
> > >>>> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive
> > >>>> for now she is going to be expanding her
> > >>>> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up
> > >>>> on Rebacca's travails
> > >>>> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
> > >>>> heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
> > >>>> .
> > >>>> Michael
> > >>>> Marshall Islands
> > >>>> --- Original Message -----
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *From:* Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> > >>>> *To:* Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > >>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rebecca,
> > >>>> Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in
> > >>>> a gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same
> > >>>> challenge to ignite and creating the pyrolytic front.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top
> > >>>> of your coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more
> > >>>> easily and ignite the chips, using woodshaveings or even gras,
> > >>>> as a starter.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> REMEMBER:
> > >>>> Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
> > >>>> fueling Chamber!
> > >>>> This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome
> > >>>> of your charcoal or biochar production.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Good Luck.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Otto
> > >>>>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> > >>>> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>>> CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rebecca,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology
> > >>>> is highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes
> > >>>> them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with
> > >>>> densified wood pellets). But just make a slightly larger and
> > >>>> longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of
> > >>>> pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that
> > >>>> migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > >>>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu> Skype:
> > paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >>>> Website:www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Michael,
> > >>>> I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows
> > >>>> the coconut so well!! So I presume you know very well the
> > >>>> native "tuba" drink from the flower shoot? Do take a look
> > >>>> at my photo album below :
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> >
> >
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
> > 113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;
> > >>>> your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from
> > >>>> coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic bags). The
> > >>>> charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the bucong I
> > >>>> need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37
> > >>>> -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses
> > >>>> "oling" or coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will
> > >>>> find the big traditional kalans which can use firewood,
> > >>>> "palwa" or "bucong". The "bucong" is the fuel of the poorest
> > >>>> and the "bingka" or rice cake bakers; the "palwa" is bought
> > >>>> by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass; and the
> > >>>> "oling " is bought by the many food vendors (like "tocinos"
> > >>>> -- similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat
> > >>>> buns, boiling water for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and
> > >>>> households for broiling fish and meats (sinugba).
> > >>>> Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the
> > >>>> ground --a smoky process with a lot of energy going to
> > >>>> waste. Do you know a better way??
> > >>>> Rebecca
> > >>>> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
> > >>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > >>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >>>> *Subject:* [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >>>> Dear Rebecca
> > >>>> As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
> > >>>> I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and
> > >>>> flower shoot and fronds and shell
> > >>>> Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized
> > >>>> pieces. After the nuts are husked
> > >>>> women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them
> > >>>> in the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
> > >>>> Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn
> > >>>> temperature make it very good for cooking rice.
> > >>>> BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
> > >>>> I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra
> > >>>> drier to produce better copra with out bugs and mold
> > >>>> with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
> > >>>> In more recent years the has been some switch to your
> > >>>> "bucong" of course this mean no more shell left over.
> > >>>> Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would
> > >>>> be considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it
> > >>>> tough stuff. I find slicing off the leaflets in the field
> > >>>> and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into segments
> > >>>> and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like
> > >>>> pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths
> > >>>> are superb rocket stove fuel.
> > >>>> Michael
> > >>>> Marshall Islands
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> > >>>> *To:* ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >>>> *Cc:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ;
> > >>>> Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >>>> Hello Michael,
> > >>>> Thank you for your suggestions and question. My
> > >>>> comments are as follows:
> > >>>> 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate
> > >>>> ash from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of
> > >>>> Negros Oriental. The ash is free and my partners with
> > >>>> the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
> > >>>> Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the
> > >>>> ash to Dumaguete City. If this does not work, I'll
> > >>>> follow up on the TLUD route.
> > >>>> 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have
> > >>>> shown me their work with insulating bricks to form the
> > >>>> combustion chamber in Timor Leste. The insulating
> > >>>> bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
> > >>>> heavy duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the
> > >>>> combustion chamber and to support big cooking pots. I
> > >>>> still think that tiny insulating "clay marbles" between
> > >>>> the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
> > >>>> chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am
> > >>>> hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a way to produce
> > >>>> these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.
> > >>>> 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk -- it is a
> > >>>> by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production.
> > >>>> Every 3 months, the coconuts are harvested, cut into 2
> > >>>> halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make copra.
> > >>>> The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds
> > >>>> or storage buildings to make "bucong" -- the fuel we use
> > >>>> to fire the eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use
> > >>>> the "bucong" or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a
> > >>>> rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
> > >>>> machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a
> > >>>> combustion chamber opening as wide and as high
> > >>>> (5.5"x5.5") as that of the eco-kalan.
> > >>>> Rebecca Vermeer
> > >>>> Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
> > >>>> British Columbia, Canada
> > >>>> *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
> > >>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > >>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >>>> Rebecca
> > >>>> Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the
> > >>>> low cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your
> > >>>> insulation.
> > >>>> Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire
> > >>>> your liner in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the
> > >>>> need to break
> > >>>> things up.
> > >>>> How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a
> > >>>> rocket stove?
> > >>>> Michael N Trevor
> > >>>> Marshall Islands
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:
> ravermeer at telus.net
> > >
> > >>>> *To:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> > >>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove
> life
> > >>>> Paul,
> > >>>> I currently use wood ash as insulating material
> > >>>> between the kalan and combustion chamber of the
> > >>>> eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
> > >>>> coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the
> > >>>> coconut tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less
> > >>>> firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
> > >>>> compared to traditional kalans and other traditional
> > >>>> cookstoves in Negros Oriental, Philippines. A
> > >>>> shortage in supply of ash is one fact
> > >>>> or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have
> > >>>> considered making an insulating material using a
> > >>>> 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in the form
> > >>>> of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces
> > >>>> after firing. I would fire the pellets or the
> > >>>> bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900 degrees
> > >>>> Celsius. Will there be significant formation of
> > >>>> cristobalite under these conditions? Would handling
> > >>>> the fired pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a
> > >>>> health hazard? Thanks,
> > >>>> Rebecca Vermeer
> > >>>> *From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
> > >>>> *To:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net
> >
> > >>>> *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> > >>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> ; larry
> > >>>> winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
> > >>>> stove life
> > >>>> Rebecca,
> > >>>> If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a
> > >>>> lot of cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this
> > >>>> problem should be minimized, provided channeling
> > >>>> does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
> > >>>> the particulate matter in the combustion gases. With
> > >>>> rice hull pellets in a TLUD we have a lot less
> > >>>> channeling, and a lot less particulate matter.
> > >>>> Therefore the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive
> > >>>> fuel for these and many other reasons.
> > >>>> Thanks.
> > >>>> Paul Olivier
> > >>>> On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer"
> > >>>> <ravermeer at telus.net <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hello Paul,
> > >>>> Larry just told me that the silica content of
> > >>>> rice hull ash is over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013
> > >>>> Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
> > >>>> Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.
> > >>>> Given your comment below regarding cristobalite
> > >>>> "which is a nasty carcinogen" and severely
> > >>>> hazardous to human health (see link below),
> > >>>> would you recommend the use of rice hull as a
> > >>>> household fuel for cookstoves?
> > >>>> Rebecca Vermeer
> > >>>> CRISTOBALITE LINK:
> > >>>>
> > http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
> > >>>> *From:* Paul Olivier
> > >>>> <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
> > >>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > >>>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
> > >>>> stove life
> > >>>> Paal,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> One thing I look for on my burner is that all
> > >>>> burner holes support a flame throughout the
> > >>>> process. If channeling occurs during the process
> > >>>> or if char is being burned as the process comes
> > >>>> to a close, then one can see burner holes that
> > >>>> do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is
> > >>>> being discharged from the burner holes, and of
> > >>>> course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed,
> > >>>> this represents a big inefficiency, since
> > >>>> combustion takes place far below the pot. When
> > >>>> this happens the sides of the reactor can easily
> > >>>> turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is
> > >>>> possible to spot the presence of CO2 if the top
> > >>>> of the reactor stays open and does not have a
> > >>>> lid with burner holes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting
> > >>>> in channeling, it can happen that only a few
> > >>>> holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
> > >>>> support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit
> > >>>> and shake the reactor, this problem is
> > >>>> immediately corrected. Also the effect of the
> > >>>> presence of CO2 can be spotted by the cook in
> > >>>> another way. The distribution of heat to the pan
> > >>>> is not even.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Also many of the positive characteristics of
> > >>>> biochar are lost when biochar is combusted and
> > >>>> is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
> > >>>> biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and
> > >>>> the combustion of biochar takes place if the fan
> > >>>> is not turned off at the end of the process.
> > >>>> Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at
> > >>>> all the same thing when it comes to growing
> > >>>> plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain
> > >>>> cristobalite, which is a nasty carcinogen. Under
> > >>>> ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
> > >>>> handling this stuff.
> > >>>> Thanks.
> > >>>> Paul
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo
> > >>>> <paaw at online.no <mailto:paaw at online.no>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ron
> > >>>>
> > >>>> By end of flame the color of the char is red
> > >>>> to yellow, that indicate a temperature of
> > >>>> 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke,
> > >>>> complete combustion has taken place. Is that
> > >>>> not good for biochar?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards Paal W
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
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> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > >>>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > >>>> Dalat
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a
> > ttachments/20130616/db4e65be/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:08:33 -0700
> > > From: "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net>
> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> > > <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > > Message-ID: <3DE7BB1E424E44F89BCFDF1D258CD8E2 at RebeccaHP>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > Dear ALL,
> > > Thank you for your suggestions ?all food for thought. I don?t think I
> > will have a problem igniting and creating the pyrolytic front for the
> > conversion of coconut shells into ?oling? (coconut charcoal) if I use an
> > upper layer of ?bucong? ?coconut husk with the shell in it. I have fired
> > my
> > eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius over a 10 hour period without problem
> > sustaining any temperature level. To answer Paul, I do not have any
> > knowledge base on TLUD technology but I am learning from these
> discussions
> > and hope to learn more at Stove camp. I think it has potential for
> coconut
> > charcoal making but I doubt if any of the TLUD stoves to date can beat
> the
> > all around cooking performance of the marathon running eco-kalan (yes, a
> > clay rocket stove!!). By the way, the charcoal performs very well also
> in
> > the eco-kalan. You just have to double up the parilla (fuel shelf) ?see
> > video towards the end, Cooking with Oling at
> > > http://youtu.be/mRdwiWkVf30
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rebecca
> > > From: mtrevor
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:52 AM
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > >
> > > Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
> > > We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
> alternative
> > fuels
> > > In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
> > cocnut products as fuel
> > > In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
> had
> > commented on the use of primative
> > > pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
> > hopefully to reduce some polluion
> > >
> > > Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for
> > now she is going to be expanding her
> > > rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on
> Rebacca's
> > travails
> > >
> > > I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
> heat
> > and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
> > > .
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > Marshall Islands
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Original Message -----
> > > From: Otto Formo
> > > To: Stoves Bioenergylist
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > > Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a
> > gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to
> ignite
> > and creating the pyrolytic front.
> > >
> > > I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
> > coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite the
> > chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
> > >
> > > REMEMBER:
> > > Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
> fueling
> > Chamber!
> > > This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
> > charcoal or biochar production.
> > >
> > > Good Luck.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Otto
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> > > From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > > CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > >
> > > To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is
> > highly appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
> > difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
> > But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to get
> > the
> > initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that
> > migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
> > >
> > > How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.comOn 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the
> > coconut
> > so well!! So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba? drink from
> > the
> > flower shoot? Do take a look at my photo album below :
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
> > 113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
> > >
> > > ? you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together; your
> > preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells
> > (inside sacks and plastic bags). The charcoal makers are my biggest
> > competitors for the bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close
> look
> > at photo #37 -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses
> > ?oling? or coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will find the big
> > traditional kalans which can use firewood, ?palwa? or ?bucong?. The
> > ?bucong? is the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers;
> > the ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass;
> > and
> > the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? ? similar
> > to
> > sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling water for
> > disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and
> meats
> > (sinugba).
> > >
> > > Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground ?a
> > smoky process with a lot of energy going to waste. Do you know a better
> > way??
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > > From: mtrevor
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > > Dear Rebecca
> > > As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
> > > I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot
> > and
> > fronds and shell
> > > Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces.
> After
> > the nuts are husked
> > > women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the
> > yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
> > > Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature
> > make
> > it very good for cooking rice.
> > > BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
> > >
> > > I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
> > produce better copra with out bugs and mold
> > > with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
> > > In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of
> > course this mean no more shell left over.
> > > Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be
> > considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find
> > slicing off the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib
> > chopped into segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick
> > like
> > pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb
> rocket
> > stove fuel.
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > Marshall Islands
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> > > To: ; Michael N. Trevor
> > > Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer ; Jon Anderson
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > > Hello Michael,
> > > Thank you for your suggestions and question. My comments are as
> > follows:
> > > 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from
> the
> > foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental. The ash is
> free
> > and my partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and
> > the Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to
> Dumaguete
> > City. If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
> > >
> > > 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their
> > work with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor
> Leste.
> > The insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
> > heavy
> > duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and to
> > support big cooking pots. I still think that tiny insulating ?clay
> > marbles?
> > between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion chamber is
> the
> > most practical way to pursue. I am hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a
> > way
> > to produce these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.
> > >
> > > 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk ? it is a by-product
> > of
> > COPRA (mature coconut meat) production. Every 3 months, the coconuts are
> > harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
> > copra.
> > The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or storage
> > buildings to make ?bucong? ? the fuel we use to fire the eco-kalans to
> 900
> > degrees Celsius. To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk with shell for fuel
> > in
> > a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a machete into
> narrow
> > wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber opening as wide and
> as
> > high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > > Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
> > > British Columbia, Canada
> > >
> > > From: mtrevor
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > > Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low
> > cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
> > > Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner
> in
> > multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
> > > things up.
> > >
> > > How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
> > >
> > > Michael N Trevor
> > > Marshall Islands
> > > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> > > To: Paul Olivier
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > I currently use wood ash as insulating material between the
> kalan
> > and combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood,
> > charcoal, coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut
> tree).
> > The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is
> > produced compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves
> in
> > Negros Oriental, Philippines. A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
> > >
> > > or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have considered
> making
> > an insulating material using a 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay
> in
> > the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after
> firing.
> > I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to
> 900
> > degrees Celsius. Will there be significant formation of cristobalite
> under
> > these conditions? Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of
> the
> > bricks be a health hazard? Thanks,
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > >
> > > From: Paul Olivier
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
> > > To: Rebecca A. Vermeer
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org ; larry
> > winiarski
> > > Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > > If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of
> > cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized,
> > provided channeling does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
> the
> > particulate matter in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a
> > TLUD
> > we have a lot less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter.
> Therefore
> > the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other
> > reasons.
> > > Thanks.
> > > Paul Olivier
> > >
> > > On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <
> > ravermeer at telus.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Paul,
> > > Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is
> > over 90%. At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in
> > the Philippines which used rice hull for fuel. Given your comment below
> > regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely
> hazardous
> > to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use of rice
> hull
> > as a household fuel for cookstoves?
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > >
> > > CRISTOBALITE LINK:
> > > http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
> > > From: Paul Olivier
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > > Paal,
> > >
> > >
> > > One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes
> > support a flame throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the
> > process or if char is being burned as the process comes to a close, then
> > one
> > can see burner holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is
> > being discharged from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn.
> > When CO2 is formed, this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion
> > takes place far below the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor
> > can easily turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is possible to
> spot
> > the presence of CO2 if the top of the reactor stays open and does not
> have
> > a
> > lid with burner holes.
> > >
> > >
> > > If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in
> channeling,
> > it can happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do
> not
> > support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor, this
> > problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of CO2
> > can
> > be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to the
> pan
> > is not even.
> > >
> > >
> > > Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost
> > when biochar is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of
> biomass
> > and biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of
> > biochar takes place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the
> process.
> > Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it
> > comes to growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain
> > cristobalite,
> > which is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should
> be
> > handling this stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <
> paaw at online.no>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that
> > indicate a temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke,
> > complete
> > combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
> > >
> > > Regards Paal W
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > >
> > >
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> > > No virus found in this message.
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> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a
> > ttachments/20130616/164b5c2c/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:11:21 -0700
> > > From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> > > To: "'Paul Anderson'" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "'Discussion of biomass
> > > cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > > Cc: 'Jon Anderson' <jonnygms at gmail.com>, 'Hugh McLaughlin'
> > > <wastemin1 at verizon.net>, 'Bob Fairchild' <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > > Message-ID: <007c01ce6ab4$8788f380$969ada80$@trmiles.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"
> > >
> > > Thanks Paul. That sounds like a good place to start.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:57 AM
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > Cc: Tom Miles Easystreet; Jon Anderson; Hugh McLaughlin; Bob Fairchild
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > The discussion was about coconut SHELLS. And I think that a 20 L
> > "bucket"
> > > size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the "5G
> Toucan
> > > Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin. (5G is 5 gallons is 20 L). And I
> > ask
> > > Hugh to please point us to the best description / photos. This is a
> > > single-walled fuel canister.
> > >
> > > Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the
> Peko
> > > Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters. In a warm
> climate
> > > (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with single-wall
> units
> > > that should work fine. Have plenty of chimney to get good natural
> > draft.
> > > There is no attempt to use the heat in these trial runs.
> > >
> > > When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider
> > going
> > > larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is sufficient
> > supply
> > > of coconut shells.
> > >
> > > I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes
> > charcoal
> > > from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char to Europe
> > > (because the shell-char is considered to be of such quality). but I
> do
> > > not have that contact any longer.
> > >
> > > About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs. All of my
> > > attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
> > >
> > > Paul (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
> > > dimensions and a fuel size?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > > T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
> > >
> > > tmiles at trmiles.com
> > >
> > > Sent from mobile.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Michael and Rebecca,
> > >
> > > The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
> > > referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > the use of primative
> > >
> > > pit kilns and their pollution.
> > >
> > >
> > > In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat. A simple TLUD
> > could
> > > also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
> > >
> > > There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see
> that
> > > the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
> > >
> > > THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the TChar
> > > designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
> > >
> > > ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using some
> of
> > > that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
> > >
> > > Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
> > >
> > > We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
> alternative
> > > fuels
> > >
> > > In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
> > > cocnut products as fuel
> > >
> > > In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
> had
> > > commented on the use of primative
> > >
> > > pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
> > > hopefully to reduce some polluion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for
> > now
> > > she is going to be expanding her
> > >
> > > rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on
> Rebacca's
> > > travails
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
> heat
> > > and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > Marshall Islands
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > > Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a
> > gasifier
> > > unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to ignite and
> > > creating the pyrolytic front.
> > >
> > > I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
> > > coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite
> the
> > > chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
> > >
> > > REMEMBER:
> > > Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the fueling
> > > Chamber!
> > > This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
> > > charcoal or biochar production.
> > >
> > > Good Luck.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Otto
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
> > > From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > > CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > >
> > > To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is
> > highly
> > > appropriate. The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
> > > difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
> > > But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to
> get
> > > the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic
> front
> > > that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
> > >
> > > How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com
> > >
> > > On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the coconut
> > so
> > > well!! So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba? drink from
> the
> > > flower shoot? Do take a look at my photo album below :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <
> >
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/588951149628016
> > >
> >
> 0113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444>
> > >
> >
> >
> https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
> > >
> 113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
> > >
> > > - you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together; your
> preferred
> > > frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells (inside
> sacks
> > > and plastic bags). The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for
> > the
> > > bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans. Take a close look at photo #37
> -the
> > > small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses ?oling? or
> > > coconut shell charcoal; to the left you will find the big traditional
> > > kalans which can use firewood, ?palwa? or ?bucong?. The ?bucong? is
> > > the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers; the
> > > ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor; firewood by the middleclass;
> and
> > > the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? -
> > > similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling
> > water
> > > for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish
> and
> > > meats (sinugba).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground -a
> smoky
> > > process with a lot of energy going to waste. Do you know a better
> way??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > >
> > > From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
> > >
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >
> > > Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Rebecca
> > >
> > > As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
> > >
> > > I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot and
> > > fronds and shell
> > >
> > > Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces. After
> > the
> > > nuts are husked
> > >
> > > women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the
> yards.
> > It
> > > is exhausting back breaking work
> > >
> > > Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature make
> > it
> > > very good for cooking rice.
> > >
> > > BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
> > > produce better copra with out bugs and mold
> > >
> > > with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
> > >
> > > In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of
> course
> > > this mean no more shell left over.
> > >
> > > Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be
> > considered
> > > a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find slicing
> off
> > > the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped
> > into
> > > segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces
> > feed
> > > into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket stove
> > fuel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > Marshall Islands
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> > >
> > > To: ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >
> > > Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ; Jon Anderson
> > > <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Michael,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your suggestions and question. My comments are as
> follows:
> > >
> > > 1. I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from the
> foot
> > of
> > > Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental. The ash is free and
> > my
> > > partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
> > > Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete
> > > City. If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2. Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their work
> > > with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor Leste.
> > The
> > > insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
> heavy
> > > duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and
> to
> > > support big cooking pots. I still think that tiny insulating ?clay
> > > marbles? between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
> > > chamber is the most practical way to pursue. I am hopeful Rolf and
> > > ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or
> > pebbles
> > > cheaply.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk - it is a by-product of
> > COPRA
> > > (mature coconut meat) production. Every 3 months, the coconuts are
> > > harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
> > > copra. The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or
> > > storage buildings to make ?bucong? - the fuel we use to fire the eco-
> > > kalans to 900 degrees Celsius. To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk
> with
> > > shell for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk
> with a
> > > machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber
> > > opening as wide and as high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > >
> > > Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
> > >
> > > British Columbia, Canada
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
> > >
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > >
> > > Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low cristobalite
> > > "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
> > >
> > > Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in
> > > multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
> > >
> > > things up.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael N Trevor
> > >
> > > Marshall Islands
> > >
> > > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> > >
> > > To: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> > > org
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > I currently use wood ash as insulating material between the kalan and
> > > combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood,
> charcoal,
> > > coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut tree). The
> > eco-
> > > kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is
> produced
> > > compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves in
> Negros
> > > Oriental, Philippines. A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or which affects sales of eco-kalan. I have considered making an
> > > insulating material using a 50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay
> in
> > > the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after
> > firing.
> > > I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to
> > 900
> > > degrees Celsius. Will there be significant formation of cristobalite
> > under
> > > these conditions? Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of
> > the
> > > bricks be a health hazard? Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >
> > > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
> > >
> > > To: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
> > >
> > > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> > > org ; larry winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca,
> > > If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of cristobalite
> > > formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized, provided
> > channeling
> > > does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the particulate
> > matter
> > > in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD we have a
> lot
> > > less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice
> > hull
> > > pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other reasons.
> > > Thanks.
> > > Paul Olivier
> > >
> > > On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Paul,
> > >
> > > Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is over
> 90%.
> > > At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
> > > Philippines which used rice hull for fuel. Given your comment below
> > > regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely
> > > hazardous to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use
> > of
> > > rice hull as a household fuel for cookstoves?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rebecca Vermeer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CRISTOBALITE LINK:
> > >
> > > http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
> > >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
> > >
> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> > > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paal,
> > >
> > > One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes support a
> > flame
> > > throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the process or if
> > char
> > > is being burned as the process comes to a close, then one can see
> burner
> > > holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is being
> > discharged
> > > from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is
> > formed,
> > > this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion takes place far
> > below
> > > the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor can easily turn red
> > hot
> > > and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot the presence of CO2
> if
> > > the top of the reactor stays open and does not have a lid with burner
> > holes.
> > >
> > > If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in channeling, it can
> > > happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
> > > support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor,
> this
> > > problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of
> CO2
> > > can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to
> > the
> > > pan is not even.
> > >
> > > Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost when
> > biochar
> > > is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
> biochar
> > > takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of biochar takes
> > > place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice hull
> > ash
> > > and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it comes to
> > > growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite,
> which
> > > is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
> > > handling this stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that indicate a
> > > temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke, complete
> > > combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
> > >
> > > Regards Paal W
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
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> > > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul A. Olivier PhD
> > > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> > > Dalat
> > > Vietnam
> > >
> > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> > > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> > > Skype address: Xpolivier
> > > http://www.esrla.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > > .org
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
> site:
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6406 - Release Date:
> 06/12/13
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
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> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:57:32 -0400
> From: Julien Winter <winter.julien at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Stoves] TLUD theory -- Fuel Bed Temperatures
> Message-ID:
> <CALv4xTzTiKjUMi=1422cZBXE5ZxngcLQio50ecA85bhN-CWg=
> g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear stovers;
>
> What do we know about the temperature in the fuel bed of top-lit
> updraft gasifier stoves (TLUDs)?
>
> Almost all features of TLUD function are affected by the temperature
> of the fuel bed. This includes the combustion quality of the effluent
> gases, the stability and momentum of the reaction, water boiling rate,
> the quality of biochar, the yield of biochar, the nature of effluent
> particles, production of crystobalites, production of polynuclear
> aromatic hydrocarbons, etc.
>
> In the last 30 years, temperature data has been published for
> laboratory bench-top reactors that were, ostensibly, forced-air TLUDs.
> Most of this work was done to understand the function of moving grate
> gasifiers for urban waste and biomass fuels (and even earlier research
> on coal). Along with other measurements, temperature observations
> were used to calibrate computer simulations.
>
> An example of bench-top TLUD data is attached as a pdf.
>
> These bench-top TLUDs do not cover the range of conditions experienced
> in the real world of feral TLUD cookstoves.
>
> What observations are there on fuel bed temperatures in TLUD cookstoves?
>
> What range of temperatures are possible for a functional stove? If
> the reaction is too cool, we just get incombustible shouldering smoke.
> Will the stove function poorly if the temperature is too high and
> most of the gases oxidized to CO2 within the bed? Is there a sweet
> spot temperature range, and does it vary between fuels (e.g., grass,
> chips, pellets, briquettes)?
>
>
> Just as an aside, someone should make virtual TLUD stove for testing
> theories and teaching. That shouldn't be too hard for pellets.
>
> Cheers,
> Julien-the-eyebrowless
>
>
>
> --
> Julien Winter
> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 34, Issue 32
> **************************************
>
--
Art Donnelly
President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
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