[Stoves] [biochar] First report from Phnom Penh

Paul Olivier paul.olivier at esrla.com
Mon Mar 18 20:53:33 CDT 2013


Christina,

Many people here in Vietnam use LPG. But this option is becoming
increasingly expensive. When someone buys a gasifier to minimize this
expense, I would not encourage them to remove the LPG stove. The LPG stove
is quite useful if someone has to cook for just a few minutes. But when it
comes to cooking an entire meal, here the little gasifier should be used.
In my kitchen, there is a toaster oven, a rice cooker, a microwave, an LPG
stove and a gasifier. When a lot of high-grade heat is required over an
extended period of time, the gasifier makes the most sense.

Many thanks.
Paul Olivier

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Christina Espinosa <
c_espinosa1 at u.pacific.edu> wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for your comments. My point exactly was that we need to present
> them with all options. Are you saying we should exclude LPG as an option?
> That is what it sounds like.
>
> Best,
> Christina
>
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>
> Christina,
>
> See comments.
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Christina Espinosa <
> c_espinosa1 at u.pacific.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> First, I must say that LPG is really expensive in Vietnam. That is
>> unfortunate that the cost to use it is so high. However, LPG is not this
>> expensive all developing countries.
>>
>> It's my opinion, that to say we should not be including LPG as part of
>> the solution is a bad step in the wrong direction. There is
>> a preference from many families around the world to transition to using
>> LPG, so who are we to say "no you shouldn't use it for cooking." I am
>> guessing that most of us on the list use some type of fossil fuel for
>> cooking right? Do each of us on the listserv use our preferred improved
>> cookstove technology to cook each of our own meals everyday? Probably not.
>>
>
> No one in developing or developed countries should be relying exclusively
> on fossil fuels to cook meals. If we design stoves for poor people, we
> should be the first in line to use them.
>
>>
>> We surveyed 300 families here in Guatemala and 90% of our respondents
>> using wood were interested in switching to using LPG. Of these respondents
>> 76% of families could afford the monthly cost of LPG and a monthly payment
>> for an LPG start-up package.
>>
>> Guatemala is a great example of a country that has many people that would
>> prefer to use LPG. It doesn't make sense to exclude options for them to
>> finance a LPG starter kit and have regular affordable access to LPG.
>>
>
> Why promote the use of fossil fuels?
> The price of bottled gas will continue to rise.
>
>>
>> I think Kirk Smith might say it better than I could:
>>
>> "Does it make sense to ask the poor to take on novel devices and fuels
>> that have never been tried elsewhere, because otherwise we may add a bit to
>> GHG emissions or shorten the petroleum era by a few weeks? Shouldn’t it be
>> those that produce the most GHG and have the resources and technology to do
>> something about it who shoulder the burden of testing and using new low-GHG
>> high efficiency technologies?"
>>
>
> Yes, exactly. We rich people design stoves for poor people that we
> ourselves would never use. We should be all be feverishly designing stoves
> for use in the developed world. Why focus just on poor people?
>
>
>>
>> http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/publications/02_smith_3.pdf
>>
>> We know that LPG can produce the desired health effects...so it doesn't
>> make sense for us to label it as a rich persons fuel and exclude its
>> potential for poor families to adopt it.
>>
>
> But LPG is not the only option for poor people, especially poor people who
> can barely afford LPG.
>
>
>>
>> There is not one single stove or fuel that will be the answer for every
>> family, in every country. Lets all work together to give families the
>> chance to choose a variety of affordable options to clean cooking.
>>
>
> But let us present them with all options.
>
>
>>
>> Best,
>> Christina Espinosa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin,
>>>
>>> Biochar can have significant value even in poor countries. For example,
>>> here in Dalat rice hull biochar is used extensively as a soil amendment.
>>> If a poor household can produce one kg of biochar per day and sell it at a
>>> fair market price, this will cover the cost of the means to produce it in
>>> less than a year. A lot more money has to be devoted to biochar research in
>>> a variety of agricultural applications. Once farmers understand the value
>>> of biochar with respect to the specific plants or animals they grow, there
>>> will be a rush to produce it. The high-grade heat produced in making
>>> biochar can be used for cooking, and as a by-product of biochar production,
>>> it becomes available to the household free-of-charge. To waste this heat,
>>> as some propose to do, is incredibly short-sighted. The sale of biochar
>>> should be able to cover not only the cost of the biomass from which it was
>>> derived, but in time it should also cover the means to produce it. That is
>>> why I push hard against those who want to use biochar as a fuel.
>>>
>>> Let us suppose that a gasifier costs $50 US dollars. Let us suppose that
>>> a household produces one kg of biochar per day at a value of only $0.20 US
>>> per kg. This represents an income of about $6.00 US dollars per month. In
>>> less than a year the cost of the gasifier is covered.
>>>
>>> Here in Vietnam LPG sells for about $22 US dollars per bottle. Some
>>> households consume up to two bottles of LPG each month. This works out to a
>>> monthly fuel cost of $44 US dollars. This reliance on fossil fuels is
>>> killing and has to stop.
>>>
>>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> **
>>>> Dear Ron
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your very interesting report to date on "The Big Event."
>>>>
>>>> I think that one thing that could be very helpful is a Graph showing "
>>>> Stove Price" versus "Potential Customers." Clearly, if a person is earning
>>>> say $1 per day, and the stove cost $70, this would be equivalent to 70 days
>>>> income. Here in Canada, where the minimum wage is $10 per hour, or $80 per
>>>> day, a stove costing 70 days income would cost $5,600.
>>>>
>>>> Or, to look at it from the other direction, "What price would a stove
>>>> have to sell for, so that 90% of the World's Population could afford to buy
>>>> it"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* rongretlarson at comcast.net
>>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> ; biochar<biochar at yahoogroups.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Priyadarshini Karve <pkarve at arti-india.org> ; ,"paul anderson<psanders at ilstu.edu>; Crispin
>>>> Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at gmail.com> ; Ruben at ace.co.ls ;
>>>> adrian at rocketworks.org ; sonta at emerging.se
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 18, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>> *Subject:* [biochar] First report from Phnom Penh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi to two lists  (with 6 ccs)
>>>>
>>>>   1.  This written at end of "first" day of conference.  Actually the
>>>> official first GACC day is tomorrow, but today was also the second day of
>>>> pre-conference activities..  List members active on these two lists, here
>>>> (and shown on the "to" list), who I hope will add more are Priya Karve,
>>>> Paul Anderson and Crispin Pemberton-Piggott.  I missed the first day -
>>>> Sunday - returning from Siem Reap  - home of Angkor Wat.   This is
>>>> definitely the most impressive world heritage site I have seen or could
>>>> imagine.  Uniformly impressed by the Cambodian people.
>>>>
>>>>   2.  My overall impression is that very few attendees know much about
>>>> biochar nor char-making stoves.  Of course most everyone knows something
>>>> about stoves -  although I would guess that fewer than half have been
>>>> involved for more than a year or t wo  Heard tonight that there are 650
>>>> registrants.  Great conference facilities;  no conference registration fee
>>>> and fair number of freebie meals, coffee-break treats etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  3.  My first surprise char-making stove encounter was with Sonta
>>>> Kauti, a Zambian with "Emerging Cooking Solutions"  - whose stove can be
>>>> seen at www.emerging.se.  I have not yet seen the actual stove, nor
>>>> yet know its pricing - but plan more talks with Sonta
>>>>
>>>>   4.  Next was a short encounter with Ruben Walker of "African Clean
>>>> Energy"  (see http://www.ace.co.ls/), now manufacturing in Lesotho the
>>>> "Philips" fan stove developed by Paul van der Sluis (PvdS).  This has been
>>>> identified as having the best performance characteristics so far tested.
>>>> This was my first chance to hold one - and it looks exceptionally well
>>>> made.  A surprise was the set of 10 or 12 (?) flat ceramic liner pieces for
>>>> the interior (maybe 1 cm thick??).&nb sp; Presumably long life time - being
>>>> non-metal.   Ruben said one could hold the outside of the stove after an
>>>> hour of cooking -possible because there are  four concentric metal
>>>> cylinders (three concentric air gaps).   This stove is not char making -
>>>> but I remember hearing that PvdS regularly operates it as a
>>>> charcoal-maker.   Cost in neighborhood of $70.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  5. Later, at this evening's reception,  Mr. Adrian Padt of "Rocket
>>>> Works" introduced himself  (see http://www.rocketworks.org/  -
>>>> including photo of Adrian).  This is the stove with the interesting heavy
>>>> wire mesh exterior that we discussed a few months ago - also can be held.
>>>> This also looked exceptionally well made and rugged.  Cost in the
>>>> neighborhood of $50.   In addition to the version seen at the site, they
>>>> are now adding a door to better control excess air.
>>>>
>>>>   6. I attended a day-long session put on by the World B ank and the
>>>> Asian Development Bank.- the emphasis was on country organizations in this
>>>> region.  Crispin was on what I thought the best panel - on testing, etc.
>>>> This is to hope that Priya,  Paul, and Crispin (and anyone else from these
>>>> lists here in Phnom Penh) will also add their early summary thoughts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any questions I/we can try to answer?
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>   Reply via web post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWpzajRmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-?act=reply&messageNum=14670>  Reply
>>>> to sender
>>>> <rongretlarson at comcast.net?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh> Reply
>>>> to group
>>>> <biochar at yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh> Start
>>>> a New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdWw3aTFvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc->  Messages
>>>> in this topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/message/14670;_ylc=X3oDMTM3OWpzaGUwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTcEdHBjSWQDMTQ2NzA->(1)
>>>> Recent Activity:
>>>>
>>>>    - New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnazBoMWhyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMzYzNjE2MzU3?o=6>
>>>>    2
>>>>
>>>> Visit Your Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZG8xaXZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc->
>>>> [image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZWZoZ2gxBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTM2MzYxNjM1OA-->
>>>> Switch to: Text-Only<biochar-traditional at yahoogroups.com?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>,
>>>> Daily Digest<biochar-digest at yahoogroups.com?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest>•
>>>> Unsubscribe <biochar-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>• Terms
>>>> of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> • Send us Feedback
>>>> <ygroupsnotifications at yahoogroups.com?subject=Feedback+on+the+redesigned+individual+mail+v1>
>>>>  .
>>>>
>>>> __,_._,___
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>>> Dalat
>>> Vietnam
>>>
>>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christina Espinosa
>> University of the Pacific '10
>> School of International Studies
>> c_espinosa1 at u.pacific.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Olivier PhD
> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
> Dalat
> Vietnam
>
> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
> Skype address: Xpolivier
> http://www.esrla.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>


-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130319/20b51d9d/attachment.html>


More information about the Stoves mailing list