[Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Kevin
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Tue May 28 09:32:47 CDT 2013
Dear Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Kevin
I presume this question is because of my statement below about " ...the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
# There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to attempt to change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are clear:
"# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which are not "carbon negative"?"
Please answer them.
My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this list at least a dozen times
# That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove test data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim.
- especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
# I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very helpful.
Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
# You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to see the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves List, to support your claim.
I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request for a real cite?
# Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion here.
# Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" , ie,
"a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"
Kevin
Ron
On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
Dear Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Dean:
I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which are not "carbon negative"?
Thanks.
Kevin
Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come with biochar
I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the science of (especially clean) stove operation.
Ron
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From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Hi All,
Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral, the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
Best,
Dean
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
Paul Olivier
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature exist.
Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a major hurdle.
Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
Michael N Trevor
Marshall Islands
.
From: Paul Anderson
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Otto Formo
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan expertise?
Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's message.
I see four things that will greatly advance the position of micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all four of them.
1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any significant segment of the population. We need some documentation that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales. This is about sustained usage.
We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing such studies?
2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the coming 3 months.
3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still not in hand.
4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD stoves are a focal issue.
Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that will be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.comOn 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
Ron
I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
Paul A and Ron,
If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of "belivers" and start from there.
Thanks.
Otto
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--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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