[Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Dean Still
deankstill at gmail.com
Tue May 28 10:26:29 CDT 2013
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O[image: Inline image 3]n Tue, M[image: Inline image 4]ay [image: Inline
image 5]28, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
> **
> Dear Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ron <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
> Kevin
>
> I presume this question is because of my statement below about " ...the
> need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>
> *# There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for
> mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to attempt to
> change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are
> clear:*
> *"# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
> *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> are not "carbon negative"?"*
> *Please answer them.*
>
> My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this
> list at least a dozen times
>
> *# That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is
> true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full
> combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove test
> data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can
> present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim. *
> **
> - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
>
> *# I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very
> helpful.*
>
> Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
>
> *# You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you
> to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then
> your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove
> have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to see
> the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves List,
> to support your claim.*
>
>
> I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
> for a real cite?
>
> *# Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It
> would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion here.
> *
> **
> *# Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking
> for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove
> compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" , ie,
> *
> *"a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"*
> **
> *Kevin*
>
> Ron
>
> On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* rongretlarson at comcast.net
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
> Dean:
>
> I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
> "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
> words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
> negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>
> *# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
>
> *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
> are not "carbon negative"?*
> **
> *Thanks.*
> **
> *Kevin*
>
>
> Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the
> global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
> with biochar
>
> I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
>
> Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the science
> of (especially clean) stove operation.
>
> Ron
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
> Hi All,
>
> Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to
> the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral, the
> biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
>
> Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>wrote:
>
>> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
>> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
>> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
>> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
>> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
>> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
>> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
>> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
>> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
>> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
>> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>>
>> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
>> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
>> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
>>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised
>>> to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
>>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they
>>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature
>>> exist.
>>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
>>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove
>>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered
>>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
>>> a major hurdle.
>>>
>>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>>>
>>> Michael N Trevor
>>> Marshall Islands
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
>>> expertise?
>>>
>>> Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>>> message.
>>>
>>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all
>>> four of them.
>>>
>>> 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>>>
>>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
>>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any
>>> significant segment of the population. We need some documentation that xx
>>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried
>>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their
>>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
>>> each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>>>
>>> Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
>>> follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales. This
>>> is about sustained usage.
>>>
>>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
>>> stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing such
>>> studies?
>>>
>>> 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the
>>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
>>> coming 3 months.
>>>
>>> 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
>>> with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for numbers of
>>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a
>>> factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt
>>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
>>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
>>> not in hand.
>>>
>>> 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
>>> functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I
>>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
>>> stoves are a focal issue.
>>>
>>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the ones
>>> with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that will
>>> be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered
>>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough for
>>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
>>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
>>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>>>
>>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
>>>
>>> Paul A and Ron,
>>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
>>> "belivers" and start from there.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Otto
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
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>>
>>
>
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