[Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000, 000 years from now)
Alex English
english at kingston.net
Sat Nov 16 21:00:15 CST 2013
Dear A.D.,
There are many different sizes of briquettes. Is there a local standard
size or shape? or is there a wide size range being used?
Alex
On 16/11/2013 9:12 PM, Anand Karve wrote:
> Dear Kevin,
> at least in my State (Maharashtra, India), there are some 150
> factories which compress agricultural waste into fuel briquettes. They
> pay farmers Rs.2000 per ton (about US$33) for the agri-waste, so that
> the farmers transport it at their own cost to the factory. Industries
> use these briquettes as boiler fuel. Using biomass briquettes costs
> only 30% of what one would pay for fuel oil.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net
> <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>> wrote:
>
> Dear AD
> 800,000,000 tons of Agricultural Waste is indeed a huge potential
> resource! How should it be handled to be of the highest possible
> value to the People of India?
> Clearly:
> * Some should be returned to the soil directly to improve soil
> organic matter
> * Some should be composted, and added back to the soil
> * Some should be converted to char for use as biochar
> * Some should be converted to char for use as fuel
> * Some should be used directly as fuel
> * Some should be processed into pellets or briquettes for energy use
> * Some should be used as animal feed
> * Some should be incinerated simply to dispose of excess in the
> least costly manner
> * Some should be used to make useful by-products
> * Others....???
> I would suggest that the People of India would get the greatest
> value for this potential resource if it was put to "diverse uses",
> rather than all being used for a single purpose.
> Best wishes,
> Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Anand Karve <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 15, 2013 2:31 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1,
> 000, 000, 000 years from now)
>
> Dear Stovers,
> We convert agricultural waste into charcoal by using a TLUD
> type of kiln and briquette the powdery char. In India, we
> produce annually about 800 million tons of agricultural waste,
> which can theoretically yield about 166 million tons of
> charcoal. There is no need to cut any trees for charcoal.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Cookswell Jikos
> <cookswelljikos at gmail.com <mailto:cookswelljikos at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the facts are
> reality, and they must be dealt with to avoid future problems.
> 1: Can different species be grown, that have higher Mean
> Annual Increments of growth?
> Yes - at least in East African drylands - the traditional
> colonial methods of silviculture were focused on high land
> pine and cypress plantations not indigenous dry land
> adapted trees. (which now provides the feedstock for more
> of Kenyas charcoal) Since 1994 we have been experimenting
> with different dryland planting and agronomic techniques
> (please see
> http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf pg.
> 7) and most of our findings so far have led us to belive
> that endimic tree species managed in a holistic and
> permacutrual manner produce coppiced 'branch' charcoal
> with an excellent life cycle analysis profile.
>
> 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?
> I think there is always room for improvement in many
> fields, but I have definitely noticed more small and large
> farms in Kenya appling more of a conservation
> agriculture approach to land use planning.
>
> 3: Can cooking practises be changed?
> Yes - but with great difficulty. Imagine me coming from
> Kenya to tell your grandma that she's all wrong and vice
> versa...
>
> What I have found though is that as people achieve higher
> incomes (and watch more TV) in East Africa cooking energy
> sources becomes more mixed and more specialized depending
> on the dish being cooked.
>
> 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?
> The Kenya Ceramic Jiko has been one of the most widely
> disseminated cookstoves in East Africa, on one hand, it
> saves users up to 50% on their charcoal bills compared to
> all metal non-insulated stoves. On the other hand, me and
> my father always wondered that if by making popularly
> stove that made it cheaper and easier to use charcoal
> coupled with population growth, did we not create more of
> a fuel dependency? This is why since the 1990's we have
> been advocating as much as possible to encourage all other
> stove makers to also think about provisions for
> reafforestation efforts.
>
>
> 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of energy, be
> used to take some of the pressure off the woodlots?
> Please see this recently released quite amazing document
> from ICRAF
> http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 ''What
> happend to the charcoal crisis?''
>
> Yes, but if as WWF has seen in Virunga, if people switch
> to fossil fuels, what happens when they are found under
> forests? And even solar cookers and microwaves may not
> help as much as if one takes into account the Life Cycle
> Analysis of the transport, computing power to design one
> etc... a 3 stone fire and growing your own trees start
> looking more attractive.
>
> I am a great proponent of tree based biomass energy for at
> least people's sunday BBQ's ( which is a huge cause of
> charcoal us in Kenya!) due to the fact of all the other
> ecological trickledown effects.
>
> 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible, to put
> the land to a higher use, with multi-cropping?
> ...etc...
>
> yes we have tried food, fuel and fodder combinations to
> good effect in Kajiado - linear non-woodlot forestry is
> beginning to create more of an appearance in this area as
> land becomes adjudicated and title deeds issued. Land
> tenure is a huge obstacle to forestry in Kenya, this is
> why I personally am in favour of things like aerial
> seeding programs - if we some how grow too many trees, we
> will always be able to cut them down to cook with!
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef
>
> Many thanks for your response.
>
> Teddy
>
> *Cookswell Jikos*
> www.cookswell.co.ke <http://www.cookswell.co.ke/>
> www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos
> <http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos>
> www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com
> <http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/>
> Mobile: +254 700 380 009
> Mobile: +254 700 905 913
> P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:15 AM, <Carefreeland at aol.com
> <mailto:Carefreeland at aol.com>> wrote:
>
> Kevin and Stovers,
> I am desperately wanting to farther study points
> 1,2,5 and 6. You got my attention buddy. Sorry, I
> don't have a 100 year old experiment to show you the
> results of my work. I do not do research papers
> because I'm an illiterate idiot. Many of you who have
> been on this list a while may remember- this letter
> will be a small record of the state of a sample of my
> research. Nobody has me asked this lately but you,
> Kevin. I'll probably die knowing and wanting to know
> way more than I can ever tell, if I talked the rest of
> my life. It just seems to bore everybody but some
> Biomass people. I miss you all out here alone trapped
> in the future.
> My extensive experience with landscaping and
> gardening suggests we have only begun to barely
> scratch the surface of multicropping research. Mother
> Nature has done an amazing job of this, but we are not
> after the same goals as her. Typical natural forestry
> suggests that a 3 layer canopy is most efficent in
> biomass productive environments. As we push into less
> productive land, that will be different in both
> directions. . What each layer consists of for any
> given set of environmental conditions is has wide
> increasingly complex variables. Someday 100 years from
> now, a computer program will be crunching in whatever
> is the Cray Super Computer of that age. It will tell
> the then modern forester what works best- maybe. Then,
> only experiments to compare the real time data to to
> the computer model will fine tune the long term plan.
> Modern complex forestry computer programs mostly
> focus on select harvest models. Computer planting
> programs just use current harvest data to optimise
> plantation - type management. How do you get data on
> trees that take 300 years or more to be fully mature?
> Recent studies suggest that 1000 year old Redwoods are
> still increasing in biomass production over younger
> trees. Got 1000 years to collect data?? Maybe we
> should be breeding many trees to grow 1000 years.
> If we make half the progress growing trees that we
> have made in a typical productive vegetable garden in
> 4000 or more years, you can throw out the predictions
> for production numbers. New numbers may be easily a
> power of ten more productive. Just look what small
> changes have brought us. When you consider the
> efficiency of photosynthisis to convert sunlight into
> chemical energy, that number theoreticlly can go two
> powers of ten or more. Not only do we need to first
> optimise growing technique, but then optimise
> breeding, and back to growing technique and so fourth.
> I don't even want to consider pandoras box
> of geneticly modified plants. I think outer space is
> the best place to release them so they don't
> contaminate our biosphere like GM corn has. I
> considered that thought over 20 years ago and it
> merged with my childhood idea of growing trees on the
> moon and on orbit. That is why I've wanted to merge a
> greenhouse with a blacksmith shop. It's how space
> homesteads will do it. I discussed this issue at a
> hydroponics conference in the early 1990's and
> everybodys eyes rolled, so I just went out and worked
> on it with what I had. Nobody came to collect the
> amazing data I saw everyday for twenty years. A few
> years ago, my greenhouse was forced to close and my
> finacial situation has nearly halted all my research.
> I hope to slowly get back in the game if I don't loose
> my new 5 acre farm. It is Gods gift to me for my
> study. Most of the assets of this land are hidden and
> only of use to me.
> Most of the forests today are being primarlily
> managed for lumber of some type. Hunting wildlife is
> about the only large second crop. Small private lands
> and prototype corporate plantations are where the
> experiments are being done. When we start to combine
> orchard and vegetable production with forestry, the
> sky is the limit. I take that back, how far has the
> Big Bang blown things open today? That is the limit.
> And this is how we will get out there if we do, over a
> billion years of future evolution and space travel.
> Call me crazy, but I saw a powerful vision as a child
> that told me this. You just keep moving the decimal
> point on the equation. Carl Sagan must have seen a
> vision like mine, and so I supported his work long
> ago. Most thought he was craazy too. Thanks Carl.
> I have been blessed to spend a little time with
> one of the greatest foresters of our generation. John
> Guthrie of Wiggins Mississippi fame. My crash course
> in Southern USA forestry, shortly after Hurricane
> Katrina, taught me the following: The closer we get to
> understanding the original native environment, the
> better we can merge our needs to the use of the land
> given to us.
> John would be first to tell you that if only a
> higher power can make a tree, who are we to decide how
> and where to grow it? That has led him to push the
> reintroduction of missing native tree species which
> have been eliminated one at a time. Grown in
> plantations to examine and focuse on each, longleaf
> pine is a good example. It was like the White Oak
> tree, the king of the forest, until it was logged
> nearly to extinction. Currently, burning of
> undergrowth is done like the Natives did for
> management in early stage plantations. Timing is
> everything. We had lively conversation about grazing
> and/ or underplanting of numerous shrub species to
> reduce this practice. I think I opened up his mind by
> the smile on his face. Some private plantations were
> doing this on a very basic experimental level in 2006.
> The forest plot I was camped in, had longleaf pine
> being interplanted where select thining was being done
> to young Southern Yellow Pine, It was John"s land
> right behind the International Paper plant, so I think
> it was a prototype. The thinnings were going mostly to
> chip and saw for OSB and other products. The small
> thinings were hauled at harvest cost for pulp. Katrina
> opened it up more - as if God were saying to John "
> you got the idea boy, now go with it and I'll help yu".
> Dr. Michler I belive is his name, discussed his
> work at Purdue U. with me about 10 years ago. At the
> time he was pioneering in the selecting of 3 hardwood
> species: Red Oak, Black Cherry, and Walnut. An
> Indiana nursery was selling the products of tissue
> culture of the best selected species. Breeding of
> hardwoods was still in it's infancy. The new science
> then was using gene mapping to select known genes to
> assist breeding of trees which were only starting to
> bear fruit. That is very exciting -more productive and
> safe than GM plants. I called because I wanted to know
> if anybody had studied growing trees to make charcoal
> fuel and he wondered what for.....
> Kevin, I would like to add to your bucket list a
> huge compounding factor number 7. What happens when we
> do all of the above, yet look at secondary and
> multiple layers of recycling of plants. For a great
> example you and I may have discussed the fact that
> Charcoal production for an industrial fuel may be the
> best utimate landfill killer. Demolition waste must be
> the largest growing filler of landfills. I have done
> limited research into which trees produce the best
> metallurgical charcoal. What happens when we breed
> trees for example, to both build houses, then reuse
> the wood to fuel a blast furnace to make the finest
> iron ever made?. The two uses are very compatible.
> Just so happens that some of the strongest hardwoods
> as well as pine species make real clean charcoal. The
> hardwoods make the most dense charcoal by nature. We
> can also infuse charcoal with additional hydrocarbons
> in the conversion process, with net energy production.
> If we grow walnut trees for example, we can produce
> food and many chemicals too at no additional cost.
> Nearly every organic chemical can be coaxed from
> living material. Don't even get me started on the
> chemical refinery/production avenue. I've said enough.
> I cannot do much more or take time to record what I've
> found out or can find out without a break in life
> somewhere. That is why I don't contribute much anymore
> to these lists. It gets me all excited, and then
> frustration sets in. I have 3 kids to raise and cannot
> waste my time playing with the future of mankind when
> I need food stamps.
> Enough said.
> Ok , do I have anybodies attention now???
> I have to get off the computer so my Son can do
> his homework, Sorry, no time for editing or
> additional info tonight.
> Dan Dimiduk
> Shangri- La Research.
> In a message dated 11/13/2013 7:41:16 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, kchisholm at ca.inter.net
> <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net> writes:
>
> Dear RB
> OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the
> facts are reality, and they must be dealt with to
> avoid future problems.
> 1: Can different species be grown, that have
> higher Mean Annual Increments of growth?
> 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?
> 3: Can cooking practises be changed?
> 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?
> 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of
> energy, be used to take some of the pressure off
> the woodlots?
> 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible,
> to put the land to a higher use, with multi-cropping?
> ...etc...
> Most people like to do things the way they have
> always been done. They can't expect different
> results if they do things the same way they have
> always done things in the past. The cruel facts
> are that if they want different results, then they
> will have to find changes that are acceptable to
> them, OR choose to live with the consequences of
> their present practises. Those seem to be the
> cruel realities.
> Best wishes,
> Kevin
>
>
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> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology
> Institute (ARTI)
>
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> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
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