[Stoves] Stove tipping: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27
Nathan Johnson
NathanJohnson at asu.edu
Tue Sep 24 18:23:45 CDT 2013
Hi Crispin, Lanny --
I agree that the pot contents can affect the likelihood of tipping, as well as other considerations such as fuel loading and utensils resting on the stove.
Best regards,
Nate
--
Nathan Johnson
Assistant Professor
Department of Engineering & Computing Systems
Arizona State University
nathanjohnson at asu.edu<mailto:nathanjohnson at asu.edu>
480-727-5271
On Sep 24, 2013, at 11:00 AM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
2. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Lanny Henson)
3. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
4. pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Lanny Henson)
5. Re: pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
6. Re: Recorded EPA webinar and files posted (Jetter, James)
7. Re: Recorded EPA webinar and files posted (Jetter, James)
8. Re: pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24 (Lanny Henson)
9. Re: pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 08:34:04 +0700
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <005a01ceb8c6$2b535500$81f9ff00$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Nate
I am experimenting with a different form of stability as the chances of a
pot tipping over are not as great as that of a pot falling off. If the
support triangle or square of a stove is relatively then putting on a large
diameter pot is dangerous because it easily falls over spilling hot water on
everything and everyone.
We are looking at a rice steaming soblok as the most dangerous local cooking
container. It has a hollow space at the bottom where water is boiled
continuously, a platform for holding the rice which is more dense than
water, and a tall pot with little space above. When tilted the centre of
gravity moves more than it would if there was no steamer section.
When that same pot is used for boiling water it is relative tall for its
diameter. When tilted the water shifts to the outside moving the CG more
than the tilt of a solid object.
I was thinking of a spec whereby the pot supports should be adequate to
cause the water to spill out of an 80% full pot before falling over. It is a
test that can be done mathematically as well as practically.
Interested?
Regards
Crispin in Jakarta
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Nathan Johnson
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:28 PM
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Hi Lanny,
There are two methods and metrics commonly used to measure the
susceptibility of a stove from tipping over
1) method -- with a stove standing vertically, tilt the stove to one side
until it falls over; metric -- the angle that the stove can be tilted away
from vertical before it tips over on its own (typically used for portable
stoves)
2) method -- apply a specified horizontal force to the stove; metric -- if
the stove tilts, moves, deforms, or falls over when the force is applied
(typically used for larger stationary stoves)
Protocols should not specify the required size of the base to prevent
tipping. That decision is left to the designer based on his/her findings
from the safety tests.
Most protocols do not require pots present on the stove. Yet, as you note, a
pot can affect the stove's risk of tipping. No doubt all aspects of the
cooking system--stove, user, pots/utensils, kitchen--affect cooking safety.
Many people in the stove community tend to consider the larger contexts that
influence the efficacy of technical designs. I have a similar viewpoint, and
chose to include the stove when developing a new set of safety guidelines
tailored to biomass cookstoves. You can find my work on stove safety here
http://community.cleancookstoves.org/user_content/files/003/052/3052100/a8d6
6ebfa9745553fb1d971160a282d4-bssp1.0.pdf The text is copied from my Master's
Thesis. Let me know if you want a copy of the full text.
Best regards,
Nate
--
Nathan Johnson
Assistant Professor
Department of Engineering & Computing Systems
Arizona State University
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 02:30:13 -0400
From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <48033C5985AA4F74B3B992F1569D2287 at HP>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
That is what I was thinking, I had already started typing a note. I think the hazard of a bump and spill or splash is more likely than a tip over. A bump Like someone falling against the stove could dislodge the pot but not tip over the stove. The pot holders, the shape of the cook top and the foot print could affect the bump/spill/splash hazard.
I am thinking that the height with a pot of 2 to 2.5 times the width of the base would be safe but 3 or 4 times would be getting dangerous.
This is for household size stoves, with larger stoves, you are less likely to have a force large enough to affect the stove.
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Dear Nate
I am experimenting with a different form of stability as the chances of a pot tipping over are not as great as that of a pot falling off. If the support triangle or square of a stove is relatively then putting on a large diameter pot is dangerous because it easily falls over spilling hot water on everything and everyone.
We are looking at a rice steaming soblok as the most dangerous local cooking container. It has a hollow space at the bottom where water is boiled continuously, a platform for holding the rice which is more dense than water, and a tall pot with little space above. When tilted the centre of gravity moves more than it would if there was no steamer section.
When that same pot is used for boiling water it is relative tall for its diameter. When tilted the water shifts to the outside moving the CG more than the tilt of a solid object.
I was thinking of a spec whereby the pot supports should be adequate to cause the water to spill out of an 80% full pot before falling over. It is a test that can be done mathematically as well as practically.
Interested?
Regards
Crispin in Jakarta
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Johnson
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:28 PM
To: <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Hi Lanny,
There are two methods and metrics commonly used to measure the susceptibility of a stove from tipping over
1) method -- with a stove standing vertically, tilt the stove to one side until it falls over; metric -- the angle that the stove can be tilted away from vertical before it tips over on its own (typically used for portable stoves)
2) method -- apply a specified horizontal force to the stove; metric -- if the stove tilts, moves, deforms, or falls over when the force is applied (typically used for larger stationary stoves)
Protocols should not specify the required size of the base to prevent tipping. That decision is left to the designer based on his/her findings from the safety tests.
Most protocols do not require pots present on the stove. Yet, as you note, a pot can affect the stove's risk of tipping. No doubt all aspects of the cooking system--stove, user, pots/utensils, kitchen--affect cooking safety. Many people in the stove community tend to consider the larger contexts that influence the efficacy of technical designs. I have a similar viewpoint, and chose to include the stove when developing a new set of safety guidelines tailored to biomass cookstoves. You can find my work on stove safety here http://community.cleancookstoves.org/user_content/files/003/052/3052100/a8d66ebfa9745553fb1d971160a282d4-bssp1.0.pdf The text is copied from my Master's Thesis. Let me know if you want a copy of the full text.
Best regards,
Nate
--
Nathan Johnson
Assistant Professor
Department of Engineering & Computing Systems
Arizona State University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 16:17:53 +0700
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <059001ceb906$f4c81a20$de584e60$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Lanny
It is unusual to find a pot that is taller than it is in diameter. I can't
think of one in common use by ordinary people.
But a soblok (rice steamer) is about 'square'. If you are familiar with
engine stroke and bore, the common pots are 'oversquare'.
The implications are two: they are not all that tall, and the water sloshes
to the side and over the lip with relatively greater ease per unit volume
(per degree of tilt).
The question of safety includes the pot supports and how spread out they
are. A large diameter pot on a small support circle is dangerous. On 3
instead of 4 supports is more dangerous again.
That is what I want to see tested. There are numbers that can be applied
because the centre of gravity (CG) dominates the safe angle of tilt.
Regards
Crispin
That is what I was thinking, I had already started typing a note. I think
the hazard of a bump and spill or splash is more likely than a tip over. A
bump Like someone falling against the stove could dislodge the pot but not
tip over the stove. The pot holders, the shape of the cook top and the foot
print could affect the bump/spill/splash hazard.
I am thinking that the height with a pot of 2 to 2.5 times the width of the
base would be safe but 3 or 4 times would be getting dangerous.
This is for household size stoves, with larger stoves, you are less likely
to have a force large enough to affect the stove.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 08:59:29 -0400
From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <55956F20F517481CAB6957144E430624 at HP>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Crispin and all,
You mentioned pot sizes.
There are stock pots, sauce pots and brazier pots.
Does you pot fit in one of these categories?
>From photos it looks like most pots used in developing areas are in the "sauce pot" category but many also use stock pots for the larger 60 liter and 100 liter size.
Links to Winco pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes but are close to the same size.
Stock pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9
Sauce pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17
brazier pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16
I am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is tall enough to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same diameter.
Lanny
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Dear Lanny
It is unusual to find a pot that is taller than it is in diameter. I can't think of one in common use by ordinary people.
But a soblok (rice steamer) is about 'square'. If you are familiar with engine stroke and bore, the common pots are 'oversquare'.
The implications are two: they are not all that tall, and the water sloshes to the side and over the lip with relatively greater ease per unit volume (per degree of tilt).
The question of safety includes the pot supports and how spread out they are. A large diameter pot on a small support circle is dangerous. On 3 instead of 4 supports is more dangerous again.
That is what I want to see tested. There are numbers that can be applied because the centre of gravity (CG) dominates the safe angle of tilt.
Regards
Crispin
That is what I was thinking, I had already started typing a note. I think the hazard of a bump and spill or splash is more likely than a tip over. A bump Like someone falling against the stove could dislodge the pot but not tip over the stove. The pot holders, the shape of the cook top and the foot print could affect the bump/spill/splash hazard.
I am thinking that the height with a pot of 2 to 2.5 times the width of the base would be safe but 3 or 4 times would be getting dangerous.
This is for household size stoves, with larger stoves, you are less likely to have a force large enough to affect the stove.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
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http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:15:35 +0700
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <05c401ceb928$29661770$7c324650$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In Africa most pots have pretty standard or shall I say similar aspect
ratios. A stewing pot tends to be taller but it is rare to find a H/W
(height/width) greater than one outside a restaurant (where the save space
on a crowded cooking surface).
For the ones you have, do you find a consistent ratio?
Regards
Crispin
Crispin and all,
You mentioned pot sizes.
There are stock pots, sauce pots and brazier pots.
Does you pot fit in one of these categories?
>From photos it looks like most pots used in developing areas are in the
"sauce pot" category but many also use stock pots for the larger 60 liter
and 100 liter size.
Links to Winco pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes but are close
to the same size.
Stock pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=
<http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sto
ck+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9>
&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9
Sauce pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=
<http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sau
ce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17>
&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17
brazier pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=
<http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=bra
ziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16>
&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16
I am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is tall
enough to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same diameter.
Lanny
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:06:56 +0000
From: "Jetter, James" <Jetter.Jim at epa.gov>
To: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>, "Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted
Message-ID:
<2c51bee5c68c43519322157685b981cd at BLUPR09MB005.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ron,
Thank you for your comments. In reply to your questions:
3. For the example on Slide #46, I think we can say the "lost" energy is 50%, but we must also say that the potential energy in the unburned char is 20%. If the char is discarded or used for some purpose other than for fuel, such as for biochar, then the "lost" energy is 70%.
4. I believe that we cannot add the "apples" and the "oranges."
5. The best thermal efficiency we have found for a char-producing TLUD stove with low-moisture wood pellet fuel and with a pot skirt was 53% (average of cold-start and hot-start) with the WBT credit for remaining char. Results were published and are available at this link:
http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/?p=1387
The ratio of energy in remaining char to energy in fuel was approximately 40%. If the char is "excluded" (discarded or used for a purpose other than for fuel), then thermal efficiency is 32%. We can say the "lost" energy is 28% if the remaining char is used for fuel, or the "lost" energy is 68% if the remaining char is not used for fuel.
Hope this is helpful.
Regards,
Jim
From: Ronal W. Larson [mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 5:27 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Jetter, James
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted
Jim and "stoves":
? ?1. ?Thanks for the link (below) to the PPt. ?Very complete added notes - I guess transcribed.
? ?2. ?My first question relates to the "apples and oranges" discussion on slide #46, where you give the helpful example of energy into the pot (apples) of 30% and in char (oranges) of 20%, showing a calculated efficiency of .3/(1-.2) = .375 ?(37.5%). ?Then warnings about not being legitimate to add the 30 and 20%. ?I am in support of what you have written.
? ?3. ?I want to ask on the reverse side of this: ? What is the inefficiency?(lost, useless energy) number? ?The obvious choices are the reciprocals of the above: ?62.5%, 70%, and 50%. I can only justify 50% in my mind. Your choice? ? I ask to see if char-making stove salespersons would be justified in talking of this (lowest) 50%.?
? 4. ? A corollary question is ?- ?if we don't believe that 62.5% or 70% are justified inefficiency numbers, then what do we call the sum of "apples" and "oranges"?
? ?5. ?Some char-making stoves are seeing more than 20% char by weight ?- so maybe "oranges" could be 40%. ?If 30% still made it to the pot, this would lead to the "main" reported stove efficiency of .3/(1-.4)=.5 (50%) and the choices for inefficiency become 50% (100 minus number to left), 70% ?(no change, by assumption on apples), and (100-30-40)=30%. ?This done only to show that the "sales pitch" differences can be larger than in your example. ?The question is what is the smallest inefficiency numbers you have measured yet for char-making stoves (along with the number of "apples" and "oranges" to come up with that number)
? ?Again - thanks for all you are doing. ?
Ron
On Sep 21, 2013, at 3:35 PM, "Jetter, James" <Jetter.Jim at epa.gov> wrote:
To All,
Thanks to those who joined us for the webinar on August 29, and thanks to the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves for hosting.
The recorded webinar, presentation slides with notes, and draft spreadsheet have been posted for your information, review, and comments:
http://community.cleancookstoves.org/communities/forums/viewtopic/22/33/207?post_id=357#p357
The purpose of the webinar was to:
??Provide an update on the EPA cookstove testing project
??Present a format (EPA spreadsheet) for sharing data
??Discuss test methods
??Focus on example testing results for a batch-fueled pyrolytic TLUD (top-lit up-draft) stove
??Solicit further comments on methods, spreadsheet, and data sharing
Please let me know if you have any further comments by Oct. 11. ?My email address is: jetter.jim at epa.gov
Regards,
Jim Jetter
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:39:16 +0000
From: "Jetter, James" <Jetter.Jim at epa.gov>
To: "stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted
Message-ID:
<0fe8e632039a4ca9a74a3559535a0958 at BLUPR09MB005.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Nolbert,
The link on Slide #22 should take you directly to the published paper and supporting information:
http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/?p=1387
I will also send you the files in a separate email message.
Regards,
Jim
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 19:35:37 +0300
From: Nolbert Muhumuza <muhumuza at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Recorded EPA webinar and files posted
Message-ID:
<CAOhP5jzjgyoNeg-7B+hDGLZGT_3RN8HeeW+Hte4i5UTMUfdfWg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hello Jetter,
Slide #22 says you previously tested a batch-fueled TLUD report and
gave a link of the report. I have tried to find this report on the
website but cant find it.
Could you kindly send me a more specific link or send it to me?
Nolbert.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:14:01 -0400
From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <8F70AAA20AA445EF9BBBAA02946583CB at HP>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Stock pot about 1;
sauce pot about .63;
and most braziers are about 15 cm tall for all the different diameters which is .43 for small size to .26 for larger size.
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
In Africa most pots have pretty standard or shall I say similar aspect ratios. A stewing pot tends to be taller but it is rare to find a H/W (height/width) greater than one outside a restaurant (where the save space on a crowded cooking surface).
For the ones you have, do you find a consistent ratio?
Regards
Crispin
Crispin and all,
You mentioned pot sizes.
There are stock pots, sauce pots and brazier pots.
Does you pot fit in one of these categories?
From photos it looks like most pots used in developing areas are in the "sauce pot" category but many also use stock pots for the larger 60 liter and 100 liter size.
Links to Winco pot sizes. Different brands are different sizes but are close to the same size.
Stock pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=stock+pots&Submit.x=36&Submit.y=9
Sauce pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=sauce+pot&Submit.x=30&Submit.y=17
brazier pots
http://www.wincous.com/search.asp?BigClassName=&SmallClassName=&keyword=braziers&Submit.x=20&Submit.y=16
I am using a 40 quart sauce pot with the SLC but the pot shell is tall enough to hold a 60 qt stock pot which is about the same diameter.
Lanny
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Stoves mailing list
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 00:14:54 +0700
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] pot sizes /Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 24
Message-ID: <05f901ceb949$98c128f0$ca437ad0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
So the stock pot would be a good one for a stability test. What are the
dimensions? Does it have a large radius when the side connects to the
bottom? That reduces the footprint.
Thanks
Crispin
Stock pot about 1;
sauce pot about .63;
and most braziers are about 15 cm tall for all the different diameters which
is .43 for small size to .26 for larger size.
In Africa most pots have pretty standard or shall I say similar aspect
ratios. A stewing pot tends to be taller but it is rare to find a H/W
(height/width) greater than one outside a restaurant (where the save space
on a crowded cooking surface).
For the ones you have, do you find a consistent ratio?
Regards
Crispin
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 37, Issue 27
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