[Stoves] Paul & Paal discussion on centralized an decentralized equipment production scheme for clean cooking issues
rozis jean-francois
rozisjf at club-internet.fr
Thu Jan 2 05:44:01 CST 2014
Dear Paul and Paal,
I enjoyed your exchange on centralized model vs decentralized one for
stove production/distribution in developing context..
Yes of course the most successful ICS dissemination up to now in
developing country context remain through decentralized approach..very
well adapted to the context (flexibility, low investment needs, no fixed
cost most of time, capacity for distribution at low cost by reducing
distance between producer to user, ..)
But one main drawback remains the quality control..very complicated to
set up and maintain, in Cambodia it was not a small beer front of the
very decentralised scheme of NLS production, we succeed less or more,
but with huge efforts
Now, the probs I can see in France I'm working for low income population
by introducing a low cost and efficient heating solution with biomass
mass heating stoves (advanced combustion technology at very low cost),
it can occur in the future with the efforts to develop drastic norms on
cooking stoves in developing countries. A normative centralized scheme
is after a while producing strange rules *to protect himself*!!
It's very costly when you arrive with an innovative technology in such
protected supply chain (roughly that will cost me 100 000 US$ to pass
all the test procedure to get labels..and get full access to the
market), the decentralized scheme I propose is based on territory
approach (use of local biomass, local mason to install low cost mass
heating stove, thermal insulation of houses with local solutions,..) and
at the end we are much more competitive, local job creators, compared to
cast iron heating stoves. We develop a social business model..we
compared all the parameters, at the end we are higher in economic
(profit sharing, jobs, ..) social (able to integrate people with low
revenue not the case with standard approach, innovative low cost biomass
supply,.. ), environment (local material, low transport needs, efficient
combustion with very low PM, ..).
Just to underline, what I understood in developing countries on
decentralized approach, I'm trying to reintroduce in France with social
business approach, its a powerful way..
But what it's hard to fight with a centralized and very protected scheme!!
So, be aware to not reproduce this centralized scheme in developing
countries with clean biomass stoves with exclusive norms on biomass
stoves, high subsidizing schemes. By instance, if within a territory,
people are able to produce in a clean, efficient (cogeneration) and
sustainable way charcoal (existing technology), at an affordable cost
(local policy, smart production scheme, ..), the existing very low cost
charcoal technology stove (type of Jiko with well designed insulated
combustion chamber) totally decentralized way produced is largely
sufficient to reduce drastically the health probs of cooking in hot
climate (precautions at starting phase, refuelling, minimal
ventilation,..) for population unable to afford LPG or to cook 100% time
with LPG.
But, if the centralized scheme to propose fuelwood clean stoves is yet
well implemented, certainly subsidized by carbon finance or other
funding mechanism (specific bank, ..) and protected (norms, kind of
federation, specific law,..), maybe the first option of local
decentralized electricity production with clean charcoal stoves cannot
emerge..representing a much more sustainable option indeed..
So to avoid unending debates on centralized and decentralized schemes,
as the work done with norms on stoves, a group could work on developing
a supply chain multi criteria matrix in view to score the proposed
supply chains to define economical, social, environmental performances
of the approach.. and within same territory be aware to support the best
scoring one!
It seems basic things but always astonished how project managers,
developers are following only one vision avoiding to get the global
vision, impact of what he/she is doing..
certainly I'm too naive..
All the best for the coming year
JF Rozis
Jean-François Rozis
Tél :04 67 64 38 16
Le 01/01/2014 20:00, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org a écrit :
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
> (Paul Anderson)
> 2. Re: ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally Networked
> Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter
> "decentralisation" (Richard Stanley)
> 3. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in
> the UK - whole log gasification (Jeff Davis)
> 4. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
> (Ben Blevins)
> 5. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
> (Jonathan P Gill)
> 6. Re: ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove efforts
> (Ronal W. Larson)
> 7. Re: [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood heating in
> the UK - whole log gasification (Ronal W. Larson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:34:45 -0600
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
> efforts
> Message-ID: <52C35495.1050609 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear Paal, and all,
>
> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are
> stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
>
> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized
> production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model"
> of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That
> centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and
> many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve
> major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of
> the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they
> could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
>
> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having
> major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is
> one example.
>
> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step
> forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw at online.no wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>
>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
>>>
>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
>>>
>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
>>>
>>> ? Use of local resources
>>>
>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.
>>>
>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
>>>
>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw at online.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:27:04 -0800
> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS / and in defence of Paal,: Glocally
> Networked Localised Initiaves ? "centralisation" or for that matter
> "decentralisation"
> Message-ID: <C794ED54-C5DE-4350-A2CE-8B19972F1D2F at legacyfound.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Paul,
>
> Hoping this gets through the filters of this group, you nicely describe the very philosophical differences I have with the centralize and mass produce movement at least for these technologies; We have had major success self sustaining success at that but by the very nature of it the centralized worlds access to it, such access tends to consume it to little beneficial end for the local producer/trainer.
>
> The whole idea of development surely cannot be to simply replicate our western industrialized model of development on the global community. It's a model that you in your own profession well know has serious distortions to the global economy given for example, our resource consumption patterns as against our proportion of the world's population, and the mere carbon footprint we make in trying to extoll the virtues of centralized mass production and distribution ---where such technologies as these can be managed at the local level.
>
> It's certainly agreed that pure localized one-off initiatives are labor intensive to say the least and so much is lost in the process, as the learning is not generally transferred by the trainees-trained as trainers, to emerging groups in their own area.
>
> To me, its is not about "centralization" but about localization of initiative and responsibility and localization of reward--globally. Its about functioning as a mechanic of the process, to encourage this to happen in such a way as to assure local responsibility and initiative. The process is monetised to assure self sustained participation . Everyone works at risk and reward and responsibility locally but the participants also learn to share their findings globally
>
> And for 2014 as initially suggested by many colleagues, we are bent on assembling an anthology on the subject by those who have been directly involved in it.
>
> Knowing we all share the same end goals, all the best to you and the other many good like minds for the new year.
>
> Richard Stanley
> www.legacyfound.org
>
>
>
> =============
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> Dear ', and all,
>
> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
>
> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
>
> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
>
> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw at online.no wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>
>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
>>>
>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
>>>
>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
>>>
>>> ? Use of local resources
>>>
>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.
>>>
>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
>>>
>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw at online.no
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:23:00 -0500
> From: Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>, ajheggie at gmail.com,
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood
> heating in the UK - whole log gasification
> Message-ID: <52C37C04.3080901 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi AJH,
>
> Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if
> need be I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of
> our local farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that
> it's winter all of those types of things are gone or put away.
> Impossible to find anything outside with all this white stuff on the
> ground. Looks like I have enough scrap for the frame.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>> [Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug
>> <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jeff and Paul,
>>>
>>> It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation relating to the features you mention.
>> We have chippers that use disc blades:
>>
>> http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/
>>
>> They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to
>> mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at
>> 100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3
>> dimension proof of concept.
>>
>> I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a
>> machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
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>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:51:24 -0500
> From: Ben Blevins <hspben at yahoo.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
> efforts
> Message-ID: <3D34C06D-3EDE-4EFC-8DCC-9C47251F97B9 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
>
> B
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Paal, and all,
>>
>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
>>
>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
>>
>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
>>
>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw at online.no wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
>>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
>>>>
>>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
>>>>
>>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
>>>>
>>>> ? Use of local resources
>>>>
>>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.
>>>>
>>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
>>>>
>>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw at online.no
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:07:36 -0500
> From: Jonathan P Gill <jg45 at icloud.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
> efforts
> Message-ID: <A76BEA01-723D-4E93-9B4D-9763644352B0 at icloud.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the proof of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the centralized model!
>
> A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective way to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges. These are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can arrange. The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a level of resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver. The under resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under capitalized business knows.
>
> Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.
>
> Jock
>
> Jock Gill
> P. O. Box 3
> Peacham, VT 05862
>
> google.com/+JockGill
>
> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
>
>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <hspben at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
>>
>> B
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Paal, and all,
>>>
>>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
>>>
>>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
>>>
>>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
>>>
>>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw at online.no wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
>>>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Use of local resources
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.
>>>>>
>>>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw at online.no
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:10:08 -0700
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ETHOS Discussion about decentalized stove
> efforts
> Message-ID: <3D28008C-4B2A-4978-8922-2A38D1CABEC6 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jock, Ben, List, etal
>
> 1. I suggest we are apt to see a mixed mode for stoves: centralized manufacture of key parts and decentralized assembly. This is the World Stove model (based on least cost principles - import duties, quality control, attractive design, added services, etc). I worked twice for a small local PV company in Zimbabwe, and this was their key - provided much better service for customers than any of their competitors, for small parts - not the panels.
>
> 2. Ben: Deloitte does good work. I found this one: http://dupress.com/articles/the-transformation-of-manufacturing/?id=us:em:na:dup633:read:dup:121713&elq=9ac6469b7bc34fb59a2f895ff968dc1e&elqCampaignId=1164
> did you have a different cite?
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Jan 1, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Jonathan P Gill <jg45 at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> I am with those who favor decentralization. The internet model is the proof of the pudding. The internet could never have been built by the centralized model!
>>
>> A key aspect of the decentralized model is that it is the most effective way to leverage the human and financial capital resources at the edges. These are far vaster in aggregate than anything the centralized model can arrange. The simple fact is that the problems being addressed require a level of resources that ONLY the decentralized internet model can deliver. The under resourced central model can only fail, as any badly under capitalized business knows.
>>
>> Best Wishes for a Distributed & Decentralized 2014.
>>
>> Jock
>>
>> Jock Gill
>> P. O. Box 3
>> Peacham, VT 05862
>>
>> google.com/+JockGill
>>
>> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:51 PM, Ben Blevins <hspben at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Deloitte contractors suggested decentralized for various reasons, there consulting was rejected because the finding did not reinforce the message of mass production and distribution by development industry players.
>>>
>>> B
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Paal, and all,
>>>>
>>>> As much as I can agree with Paal's statements, but I think the cards are stacked against the success of decentralized efforts.
>>>>
>>>> The issue that Paal raises about the need to have decentralized production of stoves (and fuels) is a touchy topic because the "model" of the affluent world is for centralized industrial production. That centralized model is certainly a cornerstone of the GACC and WB and many who feel that the model of the affluent world will work to resolve major issues in the developing world. And they control access to most of the funding. And they present very convincing arguments. (If they could not, they would not be in control of the situation.)
>>>>
>>>> It would be good to have some examples of decentralized efforts having major impacts. Maybe the spread of the Kenyan ceramic jiko (KCJ) is one example.
>>>>
>>>> I will be at ETHOS and willing for such discussions if others step forward wanting to discuss this informally as an ad hoc sub-group.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>
>>>> On 12/31/2013 10:15 AM, paaw at online.no wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:12:54 -0700,
>>>>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Due to health and age it will not be possible for me to participate, but after 30 years working with task and followed the discussion at Stove list I have come to this conclusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There has to be a discussion at ETHOS about centralized or decentralized activities regarding fuel and stove production with a view on the enormous unemployment in developing countries. Taken into consideration the high demands of clean combustion, pellets will be the future biomass fuel for simple clean burning such as TLUD ND and FD. Energy forestry and agriculture energy production together collection of waste biomass of different types will give a lot of new needed jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Registration of local waste combustible biomass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Use of local resources
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Biochar production by cooking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That will be the best way for GACC Stove program to support the low income groups all around the worl
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards Paal Wendelbo paaw at online.no
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>>>>>
>>>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 10:28:13 -0700
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Gasification] Chip Guillotine was Re: Wood
> heating in the UK - whole log gasification
> Message-ID: <7D9A4A89-D963-4C60-B92F-C77F134BEABA at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Jeff, Andrew etal:
>
> 1. I vaguely recall this subject coming up 10 or more years ago, with the conclusion that a tool called a "bypass lopper" beat saws. This Amazon ad
>
> http://www.amazon.com/True-Temper-Pruning-Solutions-2342530/dp/B000EM2SSQ/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_text_y
>
> shows at least 3 companies producing tools that seem to be about $15 per inch of wood material to be sliced (1.5 up to 3 inch). Mainly designed for use in the field, but clamping on a bench should be fairly easy for many, and it might do double duty.
>
> 2. I really know nothing on this topic - just repeating earlier dialog.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi AJH,
>>
>> Don't bother sending me anything. In time I'll find something and if need be I'll just flame cut a disc from flat plate. I checked out one of our local farm supply places looking for a flat disk blade but now that it's winter all of those types of things are gone or put away. Impossible to find anything outside with all this white stuff on the ground. Looks like I have enough scrap for the frame.
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> On 12/31/2013 06:46 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>>> [Default] On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 06:53:17 +1300,Doug
>>> <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jeff and Paul,
>>>>
>>>> It's been a few years since I assembled this concept guillotine design into a drawing, and I emphasis concept. It was to show a principle of slicing the fibres as the force of the blade was applied with as much rotation of the blade possible. How the dimensions are determined can be proven using a cardboard mock-up and leaves plenty of room for innovation relating to the features you mention.
>>> We have chippers that use disc blades:
>>>
>>> http://www.greenmech.co.uk/greenmech-disc-blades/
>>>
>>> They are definitely not supposed to rotate in use but easy enough to
>>> mount so they do, the diameter is much smaller than your design at
>>> 100mm (4") diameter but they may make a simple entry for a 1/3
>>> dimension proof of concept.
>>>
>>> I have several but the postage may be prohibitive or I can ask a
>>> machine shop here to assemble something given a few more dimensions.
>>>
>>> AJH
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
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