[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 45, Issue 29
Art Donnelly
art.donnelly at seachar.org
Sun May 25 00:15:45 CDT 2014
Hi Kirk,
Thanks for sharing this valuable information. You have put a lot of thought
and time into this. I find your insights helpful.
Otto, I do not check in on the stove list very often any more. Your
pettiness reminded me why.
cheers!
Art Donnelly
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:00 PM,
<stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (kgharris)
> 2. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (Otto Formo)
> 3. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:31 -0700
> From: "kgharris" <kgharris at sonic.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
> Message-ID: <F08F958640294418A6E90AB95F346C6D at phyllisPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"
>
> Otto,
>
> Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr. Nurhuda, and the Differ
> group.
>
> The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are doing wonderful things
> in Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I would like my work to
> support.
>
> The Prime stove is however not a Method 2 stove. It more resembles a
> Vesto or Peco Pe. The early secondary air inlets are too low to provide an
> efficient pilot flame. They were clearly designed to direct air at the
> char and show no knowledge of the interaction of Method 2 type pilot flames
> with the secondary flame. If the lower holes were eliminated and replaced
> with holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the secondary inlets, then it would
> be a Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove would then get a 3.1 turn down
> ratio instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio. Please examine my document again
> to see the difference.
>
> The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4 stove. The secondary air is
> directed straight in, not down the inner wall of the reactor.
>
> Thank you for bringing up the topic of patents. I have designated the
> methods of turn down with numbers rather than names to avoid any implied
> thoughts or feelings of ownership on my part. This is partly in case a
> conflict comes up with a patent at some point. I have no desire or intent
> to violate any patents, and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any
> actions which might violate a patent or do any harm to any business, group,
> or individual. My intentions are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD
> cook stoves and all are welcome to use or not use anything I come up with.
>
> I can name my test stoves as I please and need not your permission or
> approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick name.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Kirk Harris
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Otto Formo
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron L,
>
>
>
> I am not assuming that the Peko Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test
> as a tier 4 stove, but I find it a bit odd that your method 2, is
> describing very much how the Peko Pe used to operate and now operates,
> including an adjustable primary air intake.
>
>
>
> Robert, saw the similarity for the lower secondary air inlet in the
> combustion chamber, just like the old type of Peko Pe from Uganda in the
> 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for primary air, like in the
> newest model.
>
>
> In a micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust?
> the amount of fuel to be used for each cooking.
>
>
> Just add fuel to a bit above the bottom plate and your flame will reach
> the pot, any how, due to the secondary inlet and the gasification process.
>
>
>
> A ?Rocket? stove will produce more or less the same thermal efficiency,
> but with a higher PM.
>
> These types of stoves are of course more efficient than a three stone
> fire, but the PM is very much the same as any open fire, apart from
> emissions from a micro gasifier unit.
>
>
> It would help, if a Rocket? stove was lit from the top, but still the
> strong draft in that narrow chimney, will create toxic emissions and PM to
> flow into the (air) room.
>
>
>
> I think you should also look into the Prime cookstoves, invented and
> patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of Physics, Brawijaya University,
> Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and power down the flame.
>
>
>
> I guess he would not be ?too happy? to find out that you are calling his
> PrimeStove ? Wonderwerk?????
>
>
>
> ?Your method? 3, by lifting the char in the combustion chamber, has been
> declined some time back, considered to be too complicated.
>
>
>
> We just put the remaining char into a standard charcoal stove, which you
> will find all over the African continent, for further simmering.
>
>
>
> Good luck with your efforts and tests.
>
> It is very much needed, but correct and proper references, should be
> mentioned and not ?nick named?, that`s all.
>
>
>
> Otto
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: kgharris at sonic.net
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
> Otto and all,
>
>
>
> The Peko Pe is an incredible stove and the man who created it is even
> more incredible. I wish I had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that
> privilege. I have met lots of other really incredible people though.
>
>
>
> If the Peko Pe can pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove
> then I will agree with you. If not then I will continue my struggles with
> the Wonderwerk test stoves in that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at
> Aprovecho this summer, I want to see a TLUD with low power tier 4
> capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or someone else?s stove. Come on
> TLUD folks, we're getting our butts kicked by the rocket people here.
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris
>
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Otto Formo
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
> Dear Roberto,
>
> I very much agree with you.
>
> The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and alike the way
> the Peko Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL wonderwerk, so
> why call it with a nick name:
> Wonderwerk TLUD ??
>
> This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe consept -
> "Problem no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994 -95.
>
> Otto
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900
> From: crispinpigott at outlook.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
> Dear Roberto
> I agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the
> secondary flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most
> important is that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight
> breeze (because it relights). The second is that when the primary air is
> turned down to control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot
> enough to stay alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air
> preheating (not like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed
> ration under different primary air conditions.
> Read and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown
> ratios required by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates,
> whatever the fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air
> flows.
> While a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down
> at exactly the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of
> very high PM and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel
> bed and stove body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or
> cast iron.
> If the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it
> will draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This
> explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried
> to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the
> time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).
> Regards Crispin in Seoul enjoying spring
>
> BBM 2B567C3
> From: Roberto Poehlmann
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
> Kirk,
> this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.
>
>
> The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design
> in page 9 of the following document:
>
>
>
> http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a
>
>
>
> Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal
> chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,
> maintaining the secondary flame hot.
>
>
> I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you
> can see the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.
>
>
> Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can
> also helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front
> reach the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to
> combust the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.
>
>
> Roberto Poehlmann
> Valdivia Chile.
>
>
>
>
> "
> All,
>
> Dr. Ron Larson, Dr. Paul Anderson and I have been working on the
> problem of lack of turn-down in natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have
> found considerable success. Attached is a document introducing the results
> of our labors. All information is in the public domain.
>
> K Harris
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Name: Harris TLUD turn-down 05 15 14 (1).pdf
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> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140515/adc42da5/attachment-0001.pdf
> >
>
>
>
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>
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140522/a77e6a93/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 10:31:40 +0200
> From: Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
> Message-ID: <DUB111-W12328D4A3C0B828758F5AFEEA3E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"
>
>
>
> Kirk
> Harris,
>
>
>
> I am
> happy to see that you find the Prime-Stove excellent.
>
> I am not
> familiar how the Prime-Stove operates in detail and have only seen it at
> the Differ Group premises in Oslo.
>
>
>
> About
> the patent, I just copied a sentence from their website, to describe the
> history
> of the Prime Stove and Dr. Nurhuda.
>
>
> I am, of
> course, not entitled to denie you any permission or approval to name any
> type
> of stove, whatever you like.
>
>
> But, I
> would guess that I am allowed to advice you to play by the book and give
> credit
> to the ones deserving credits.
>
>
>
> Names
> has never shamed anybody, but lack of references HAS???????..
>
>
> I just
> commented the findings by Roberto and could quite easily see the
> similarity to
> the Peko Pe stove (?Kampala - 1994?), that`s all?????
>
>
> Method 1,
> 3 and 4, are ?Hot Char? methods and will exclude your ?Wonderwerk? from
> being a
> Biochar producing stove.Just like Fan Driven stoves, they
> consume char.
>
>
> Method
> 2, are ?EXACTLY? like the ?Kampala ? 1994? ( Ww 6 holes -Kampala 12 holes
> 2,5 cm below the upper edge),
> apart from the adjustable primary inlet.
>
>
> I guess
> you also have heard about the fairy tale by the Danish poet, H. C.
> Andersen:
>
> ?The Emperor`s
> New Suit??
>
>
> Most
> people see what they like or are told to see, just a few see the
> reality????
>
>
>
> Otto
>
> I the
> middle part of Norway
>
>
>
> From: kgharris at sonic.net
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Otto,
>
> Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr.
> Nurhuda, and the Differ group.
>
> The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are
> doing wonderful things in Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I
> would like my work to support.
>
> The Prime stove is however not a Method 2
> stove. It more resembles a Vesto or Peco Pe. The early secondary air
> inlets are too low to provide an efficient pilot flame. They were clearly
> designed to direct air at the char and show no knowledge of the interaction
> of Method 2 type pilot flames with the secondary flame. If the lower
> holes were eliminated and replaced with holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm)
> the
> secondary inlets, then it would be a Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove
> would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio.
> Please examine my document again to see the difference.
>
> The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4
> stove. The secondary air is directed straight in, not down the inner wall
> of the reactor.
>
> Thank you for bringing up the topic of
> patents. I have designated the methods of turn down with numbers rather
> than names to avoid any implied thoughts or feelings of ownership on my
> part. This is partly in case a conflict comes up with a
> patent at some point. I have no desire or intent to violate any patents,
> and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any actions which might
> violate a
> patent or do any harm to any business, group, or individual. My intentions
> are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD cook stoves and all are
> welcome to
> use or not use anything I come up with.
>
> I can name my test stoves as I please and need not
> your permission or approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick
> name.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Kirk Harris
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Otto Formo
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01
> AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
> turn-down
>
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron
> L,
>
> I am not assuming that the Peko
> Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as a tier 4 stove, but I find
> it a
> bit odd that your method 2, is describing very much how the Peko Pe used
> to
> operate and now operates, including an adjustable primary air
> intake.
>
> Robert, saw the similarity for the
> lower secondary air inlet in the combustion chamber, just like the old
> type of
> Peko Pe from Uganda in the 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for
> primary air, like in the newest model.
> In a
> micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust? the
> amount
> of fuel to be used for each cooking.
>
>
> Just add fuel to a bit above the
> bottom plate and your flame will reach the pot, any how, due to the
> secondary
> inlet and the gasification process.
>
> A ?Rocket? stove will produce more
> or less the same thermal efficiency, but with a higher
> PM.These types of stoves are of
> course more efficient than a three stone fire, but the PM is very much
> the
> same as any open fire, apart from emissions from a micro gasifier
> unit.
>
>
> It would help, if a Rocket? stove
> was lit from the top, but still the strong draft in that narrow chimney,
> will
> create toxic emissions and PM to flow into the (air) room.
>
> I think you should also look into
> the Prime cookstoves, invented and patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor
> of
> Physics, Brawijaya University, Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower
> and
> power down the flame.
>
> I guess he would not be ?too
> happy? to find out that you are calling his PrimeStove ?
> Wonderwerk?????
>
> ?Your method? 3, by lifting the
> char in the combustion chamber, has been declined some time back,
> considered
> to be too complicated.
>
> We just put the remaining char
> into a standard charcoal stove, which you will find all over the African
> continent, for further simmering.
>
> Good luck with your efforts and
> tests.
> It is very much needed, but
> correct and proper references, should be mentioned and not ?nick named?,
> that`s all.
>
> Otto
>
>
>
>
> From: kgharris at sonic.net
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Tue,
> 20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
> turn-down
>
>
>
>
>
> Otto and
> all,
>
> The Peko Pe is an
> incredible stove and the man who created it is even more incredible. I
> wish I
> had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that privilege. I have met
> lots of
> other really incredible people though.
>
> If the Peko Pe can
> pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then I will agree
> with you.
> If not then I will continue my struggles with the Wonderwerk test stoves
> in
> that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at Aprovecho this summer, I want
> to
> see a TLUD with low power tier 4 capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove
> or
> someone else?s stove. Come on TLUD folks, we're getting our butts kicked
> by
> the rocket people here.
>
> Kirk
> Harris
> Santa Rosa, CA.
> USA
>
> -----
> Original Message -----
> From:
> Otto Formo
> To:
> Stoves Bioenergylist
>
> Sent:
> Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM
> Subject:
> Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
> Dear Roberto,
>
> I very much agree with
> you.
>
> The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and
> alike the way the Peko Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL
> wonderwerk, so why call it with a nick name:
> Wonderwerk TLUD
> ??
>
> This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe
> consept - "Problem no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994
> -95.
>
> Otto
>
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900
> From:
> crispinpigott at outlook.com
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject:
> Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
> Dear
> Roberto
>
>
> I
> agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the
> secondary
> flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most
> important is
> that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze
> (because
> it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to
> control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to
> stay
> alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating
> (not
> like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under
> different primary air conditions.
>
>
> Read
> and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios
> required
> by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates, whatever
> the
> fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air
> flows.
>
>
> While
> a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at
> exactly
> the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very high
> PM
> and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed and
> stove
> body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast
> iron.
>
>
> If
> the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it
> will
> draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This
> explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which
> tried
> to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at
> the
> time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).
>
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> in Seoul enjoying spring
>
>
> BBM
> 2B567C3
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Roberto Poehlmann
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
> turn-down
>
>
>
>
> Kirk,
> this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.
>
>
> The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design
> in page 9 of the following document:
>
>
>
> http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a
>
>
>
> Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal
> chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,
> maintaining the secondary flame hot.
>
>
> I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can
> see the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.
>
>
> Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can
> also helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis
> front
> reach the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to
> combust the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.
>
>
> Roberto Poehlmann
> Valdivia Chile.
>
>
>
>
> "All,Dr. Ron Larson, Dr.
> Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of lack of
> turn-down in
> natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found considerable success.
> Attached is a document introducing the results of our labors.
> All information is in the public domain.K HarrisSanta Rosa, CA.
> USA-------------- next
> part --------------A non-text attachment
> was scrubbed...Name: Harris TLUD
> turn-down 05 15 14 (1).pdfType:
> application/pdfSize: 332120
> bytesDesc: not
> availableURL: <
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140515/adc42da5/attachment-0001.pdf
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:38:51 -0400
> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
> Message-ID: <COL401-EAS35BB2563E0A1344D2E7F36B13E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"
>
> Dear Kirk
>
>
>
> I have looked through the messages below and did not find what you are
> calling ?methods 1-4?.
>
>
>
> Can you please copy to me whatever it was that is the source of the
> comments? I would like to understand what you are referring to with these
> different methods.
>
>
>
> The layout and function as you describe do not apply to the Vesto so I was
> wondering what you mean by a ?pilot flame?. The Vesto dies have a pilot
> flame with air provided by three 8mm holes quite low in the chamber, well
> below the secondary air inlets. This is relevant when the bottom of the
> combustion chamber is blocked in order to run in a TLUD gasification mode.
> Normally that is blocked with a circle of newspaper with a few knife slits
> in it.
>
>
>
> The pilot flame ensures that wood can be charcoaled and burned
> controllably,
> or pellets (packed bed function) can be pyrolysed and then the char burned.
> This function enables the user to load quite a lot of fuel into the stove
> but burn it slowly ? far slower than an ?open fire? would be able to.
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
>
> Otto,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr. Nurhuda, and the Differ
> group.
>
>
>
> The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are doing wonderful things
> in
> Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I would like my work to
> support.
>
>
>
> The Prime stove is however not a Method 2 stove. It more resembles a Vesto
> or Peco Pe. The early secondary air inlets are too low to provide an
> efficient pilot flame. They were clearly designed to direct air at the
> char
> and show no knowledge of the interaction of Method 2 type pilot flames with
> the secondary flame. If the lower holes were eliminated and replaced with
> holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the secondary inlets, then it would be a
> Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio
> instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio. Please examine my document again to see
> the difference.
>
>
>
> The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4 stove. The secondary air is
> directed straight in, not down the inner wall of the reactor.
>
>
>
> Thank you for bringing up the topic of patents. I have designated the
> methods of turn down with numbers rather than names to avoid any implied
> thoughts or feelings of ownership on my part. This is partly in case a
> conflict comes up with a patent at some point. I have no desire or intent
> to violate any patents, and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any
> actions which might violate a patent or do any harm to any business, group,
> or individual. My intentions are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD
> cook stoves and all are welcome to use or not use anything I come up with.
>
>
>
> I can name my test stoves as I please and need not your permission or
> approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick name.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris
>
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron L,
>
>
>
> I am not assuming that the Peko Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as
> a tier 4 stove, but I find it a bit odd that your method 2, is describing
> very much how the Peko Pe used to operate and now operates, including an
> adjustable primary air intake.
>
>
>
> Robert, saw the similarity for the lower secondary air inlet in the
> combustion chamber, just like the old type of Peko Pe from Uganda in the
> 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for primary air, like in the
> newest model.
>
>
> In a micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust?
> the
> amount of fuel to be used for each cooking.
>
> Just add fuel to a bit above the bottom plate and your flame will reach the
> pot, any how, due to the secondary inlet and the gasification process.
>
>
>
> A ?Rocket? stove will produce more or less the same thermal efficiency,
> but
> with a higher PM.
>
> These types of stoves are of course more efficient than a three stone fire,
> but the PM is very much the same as any open fire, apart from emissions
> from
> a micro gasifier unit.
>
> It would help, if a Rocket? stove was lit from the top, but still the
> strong
> draft in that narrow chimney, will create toxic emissions and PM to flow
> into the (air) room.
>
>
>
> I think you should also look into the Prime cookstoves, invented and
> patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of Physics, Brawijaya University,
> Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and power down the flame.
>
>
>
> I guess he would not be ?too happy? to find out that you are calling his
> PrimeStove ? Wonderwerk?????
>
>
>
> ?Your method? 3, by lifting the char in the combustion chamber, has been
> declined some time back, considered to be too complicated.
>
>
>
> We just put the remaining char into a standard charcoal stove, which you
> will find all over the African continent, for further simmering.
>
>
>
> Good luck with your efforts and tests.
>
> It is very much needed, but correct and proper references, should be
> mentioned and not ?nick named?, that`s all.
>
>
>
> Otto
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: kgharris at sonic.net <mailto:kgharris at sonic.net>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
> Otto and all,
>
>
>
> The Peko Pe is an incredible stove and the man who created it is even more
> incredible. I wish I had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that
> privilege. I have met lots of other really incredible people though.
>
>
>
> If the Peko Pe can pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then
> I
> will agree with you. If not then I will continue my struggles with the
> Wonderwerk test stoves in that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at
> Aprovecho this summer, I want to see a TLUD with low power tier 4
> capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or someone else?s stove. Come on
> TLUD
> folks, we're getting our butts kicked by the rocket people here.
>
>
>
> Kirk Harris
>
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>
> To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
> Dear Roberto,
>
> I very much agree with you.
>
> The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and alike the way the
> Peko
> Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL wonderwerk, so why call it
> with a nick name:
> Wonderwerk TLUD ??
>
> This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe consept - "Problem
> no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994 -95.
>
> Otto
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900
> From: crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
> Dear Roberto
>
>
>
> I agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the
> secondary
> flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most important is
> that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze (because
> it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to
> control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to stay
> alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating (not
> like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under
> different primary air conditions.
>
>
>
> Read and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios
> required by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates,
> whatever the fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air
> flows.
>
>
>
> While a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at
> exactly the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very
> high PM and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed
> and
> stove body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast
> iron.
>
>
>
>
> If the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it will
> draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This
> explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried
> to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the
> time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin in Seoul enjoying spring
>
>
>
> BBM 2B567C3
>
>
> From: Roberto Poehlmann
>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28
>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>
> Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down
>
>
>
> Kirk,
>
> this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.
>
>
>
> The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design in
> page 9 of the following document:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.
> pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a
>
>
>
> Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal
> chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,
> maintaining the secondary flame hot.
>
>
>
> I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can see
> the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.
>
>
>
> Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can also
> helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front reach
> the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to combust
> the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.
>
>
>
> Roberto Poehlmann
>
> Valdivia Chile.
>
>
>
>
>
> "
>
> All,
>
> Dr. Ron Larson, Dr. Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of
> lack of turn-down in natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found
> considerable success. Attached is a document introducing the results of
> our
> labors. All information is in the public domain.
>
> K Harris
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
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>
>
>
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> _____
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>
>
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> Subject: Digest Footer
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 45, Issue 29
> **************************************
>
--
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President SeaChar.Org
US Director, The Farm Stove Project
Proyecto Estufa Finca
<http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
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