[Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove Initiative (CSI) Forum

Mon Nov 24 15:35:33 CST 2014

Dear Paul and All

"I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very
controversial element concerning "fuel efficiency" vs "energy efficiency"."

I don't think it is 'very controversial'. It is a matter of what question
was asked. If people want to know the energy efficiency, ask for that. If
people want to know the fuel efficiency, ditto. If people want to know the
heat transfer efficiency, ask and ye shall receive.

What has been so misleading is the reporting of energy efficiency as the
fuel efficiency. This has been accomplished by the mechanism of turning the
energy theoretically made available from a mass of burned or semi-burned
fuel and converting it to a 'dry fuel equivalent' mass of raw fuel of the
type used in the test.

First, that means it is only comparable with other tests in which the fuel
was the same.  Second, it misrepresents (badly, in the case of char-making
TLUD's) the fuel consumption.

In the case where, as per UNFCCC interests in stopping the unsustainable
harvesting of biomass fuels, the amount of fuel needed to operate the stove
per day is no lower than the baseline, we cannot have people claiming the
stove uses less, where 'less' means the dry fuel mass equivalent of the
energy theoretically released by the fire, instead of the actual fuel
consumption.

In the case of the CSI-Indonesia Pilot, there was a clear call for 'fuel
saving' meaning it has to consume less fuel, not less energy and the same
amount of fuel. Or more fuel. Thus the method applied reflects the goals of
the programme. This can hardly be surprising.

What is really surprising to people funding stove programmes is that they
have been told a stove saves 'fuel' when it is saving 'energy' as they
assume that is the same thing. Clearly, it is not if the stove saves energy
abut uses more fuel than the open fire. The 'controversy' is not that the
calculation is made properly, it is that many funders have been hoodwinked
into funding stoves that don't save fuel when they thought that is what they
were paying for.

Regards

Crispin

From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Paul Anderson
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 4:14 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: [Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove
Initiative (CSI) Forum

Dear Stovers,

Strike it rich!!!!    I went to the CSI website (link is in the message
below) and went browsing.   I stumbled upon this document:

https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-10999      that is entitled:

2014-10-15 Seminar Video Recording: RBF Pilots on Promoting Clean Stoves in
China and Indonesia

On October 15 this year, while the working groups on standards were meeting
in Guatemala, a Power Point presentation was recorded by CSI and it is now
available to be seen.   Length is almost 1 hr 12 minutes.   Not all is great
listening.   But much is quite informative.

OF SPECIAL NOTE is the discussion starting at 56:21 about how stoves are
being evaluated in Indonesia.   We knew about these standards months ago
when Indonesia requested applicant stoves for evaluation for inclusion in
the national pilot program.   But in this document it became clearer to me.
See the presentation, but here are some highlights:

1.  At 58:00 minutes:   See photos of 15 of the 22 entries (17 accepted for
testing).   Many are easily recognized.   Seems like 3 or 4 have fans;  one
has a chimney, TLUDs and rocket stoves are included.

2.  The timetable of the Indonesia program calls for the next round of
results (finalists?) to be announced in November.   If they are on schedule,
we hope to hear the results publicly by mid-December.   I hope somebody
reports it to the Stoves Listserv.

3.  The testing criteria have ratings of 1, 2, and 3 Stars.   

Well worth the time to view this documentation.

4.  The speaker also mentions that this evaluation system was being
considered (probably not seen for the first time) by the Working Group on
Stove Standards in Guatemala.   No wonder there is discussion about Tiers
and WBT, because there is at least one set of alternative measurements /
methods.   

Clearly none of this is confidential information exclusive to the working
group members.   It is all out in front of us on the Internet, if we just
find it and call it to the attention of those who read our Stoves Listserv.

I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very
controversial element concerning "fuel efficiency" vs "energy efficiency".
Specifically, the char-making stoves (mainly TLUDs) are given zero credit
for the energy value (or other value as a different fuel) of any resultant
charcoal produced.   The wood is no longer wood if it has become charcoal,
so fuel-wood efficiency is going to be lowered even if the net-energy-used
efficiency is more favorable.   To me, that remains an item for discussion,
but charcoal production will hurt the TLUD stoves in the context of the
Indonesian testing.   

Note:   With transparency and fair play for all, I will point out the the WB
CSI (like the GACC) has not done, in my opinion, a very good job of
utilizing the Stoves Listserv as a means of informing these "Stovers" about
its efforts.  Sure the websites are there, but please help us out a bit to
better appreciate your content.

And Stovers, when you find interesting sites and specifics, please inform us
all.  I have hardly scratched the surface of what is on these well-made and
informative websites.  

If anyone has knowledge of other "stove testing standards" that should be
considered, please mention them to the Listserv.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>    
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com> 

On 11/13/2014 6:29 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

Dear Stovers

If you haven't done so already, I recommend checking out a useful resource
on sustainable stoves:
https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutio
ns. This is a website run by the World Bank Group Clean Stove Initiative
aiming to provide both knowledge products and a discussion forum for working
professionals in this field, in two languages. 

You can access categories of information on clean cooking and heating
solutions (click here
<https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-soluti
ons/projects/knowledge-hub/content> ) or join ongoing discussions on various
aspects of the issue (click here
<https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-soluti
ons/projects/discussion-forum>  for English and here
<https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-soluti
ons/projects/iniciativa-de-estufas-limpias-en-centroam%C3%A9rica?invite=fals
e>  for Spanish). 

To learn more about the initiative please contact Ms. Xuege Lu
<mailto:xlu1 at worldbank.org>  at for details.

Thanks for your interest!

Crispin

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