[Stoves] Gaming the WBT Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015

Paul Anderson psanders at ilstu.edu
Fri Feb 13 23:20:31 CST 2015


Sam and all,

Thanks for the set of slides.   They give us the various topics, each of 
which merits separate discussion.

And also those topics taken together are a significant topic that could 
be called "gaming the WBT".

The Stove community needs to highly alert about "gaming the WBT."    [I 
want to avoid any more use of the word "cheat" because it implies 
dishonesty.   There is no dishonesty when the rules are not clear.]

When somebody plays a game (poker, baseball, billiards, keeping your 
income taxes low, etc.), they try to win as best they can. And they only 
need to stay within the rules.   And that is why the tax officials make 
so many rules, and why drugs are prohibited in sports, etc.  But for 
stove testing, the rules are still being written.   Yes, there are even 
different versions in different countries.   Nobody is cheating, but 
some are seriously gaming the system.

Note that it would be dishonest to intentionally make the rules (Stove 
Testing Protocols) unclear so that some could have more advantages than 
others.  In this regard, those who are doing the standards might need to 
put more attention to this.   But we need to be careful that a push to 
close loopholes (such as using different quantities of water) does not 
push the testing to be even more unnatural than it already unfortunately is.

One example from the pre-GACC and pre-PCIA era (that is, back in 2004 - 
2007 ancient past):
The initial stove testing was virtually only being done at Aprovecho 
where Tami Bond and Dale Andreatta and others were setting up the 
equipment during the summer stove camps.   Some rules were needed.   5 
liters of water were specified.   But in order to have comparability 
between stoves, the fuel was also specified.   It was the kiln-dried, 
square-sided sticks.   They worked well for the Rocket stoves, evenly 
spaced and slowly pushed it.   But that fuel was a headache to the 
just-budding TLUD stoves!!!

I never want to see the specifications become so locked in as at that 
time.   And that is why I find Sam's Slide #6 to be so interesting.   It 
says that gaming can be done by those who "Use regular cut wood."   How 
much still today is the laboratory testing of rocket stove being 
conducted with "regular cut wood"? 80% is my guess, but even if only 
30%, that could be too much, especially if the reported results of Tier 
accomplishments are coming from those tests, while ignoring the tests 
with other fuels.

Final comments for today:   Stoves do not conduct gaming.   People 
conduct gaming.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 2/13/2015 5:48 PM, Samuel Bentson wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I chose that title to garner interest. It worked! The point is to show how to better standardize the WBT, and in case that is not possible, to show how to be aware of how the results can be manipulated or misunderstood. Here are the slides I threw together in a few minutes after deciding not to do my original talk. It’s mainly just some headings. We’re working on a paper that goes into detail about the water quantity used, it also talks about the temperature of the water during simmer, and the firepower used to bring the water to boil.  You’re right that the quantity of water influences the emissions metrics. The current WBT does have some language about not comparing tests that were conducted with different amounts of water, but it is vague. I wasn’t aware of it when I gave the talk and I don’t think other testers I have spoken to are aware of it.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2015, at 2:59 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>> To all,
>>
>> Thanks, Elisa, for the full program.   I note two things, for comments later.
>>
>> 1.  I do not see the name nor topic of Jessica Tryner of CSU, but she did present and she will be sending me a copy of the presentation, which will also appear at the Website, as Elisa has stated.   When I have that presentation, I will send comments.
>>
>> 2.  The topic of Sam Bentson's presentation is   "How to cheat the WBT."   I do not like the title because the word "cheat" is too value loaded.   Maybe "manipulate the WBT" or "modify assumptions about the WBT" or maybe " How changing some variables of the WBT can result in more favorable results."   The procedures are not changed, but some variables can be changed, and there is no requirement to report the changed variables when claiming Tier levels.
>>
>> Whatever the name might be, I am interested in the content of Sam's presentation.   Anyone who attended, please list out that variables that were mentioned.   And Sam can be sending comments also, so we do not need to wait for the materials to be at the website.
>>
>> We who attended do know one of the variables, because Dean Still clearly discussed it in his Keynote presentation.   Dean discussed the impact of using 9 liters of water instead of 5 L in the WBT, to accomplish Tier 4 level of efficiencies.  And that change might have impacted CO and PM reading also, but that was not stated.
>>
>> When we have more information, we can have a more full discussion.   Please use new Subject lines that are specific to the topics of discussion.
>>
>> Paul
>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email:
>> psanders at ilstu.edu
>>     
>> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:
>> www.drtlud.com
>> On 2/13/2015 4:09 PM, Derby, Elisa wrote:
>>> Here it is.  If anyone sees any errors let me know-- this and all the presentations will be posted on the ETHOS website soon!
>>> Best,
>>> Elisa
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:
>>> ethos-bounces at vrac.iastate.edu [mailto:ethos-bounces at vrac.iastate.edu
>>> ] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson
>>> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 10:57 AM
>>> To: ETHOS - Listserve; Stoves and biofuels network; Sam Bentson;
>>> marchese at colostate.edu
>>>
>>> Subject: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> At the recent ETHOS 2015 conference there were some presentations added
>>> after the printing of the schedule.
>>>
>>> 1.  Where is a copy of the final schedule (what was actually presented.)?
>>>
>>> 2.  If you were there, please let me know if you attended either of the
>>> following two presentations that I have heard about later, but I did not
>>> attend.   Your comments or notes would be appreciated:
>>>
>>>        A.   Sam Benton (of Aprovecho), speaking something about how
>>> testing procedures can be acceptably modified/adjusted within the
>>> testing guidelines to get higher tier results.
>>>
>>>       B.   Jessica Tryner (of Colorado State Univ.) about the research on
>>> ND semi-gasifier (TLUD) stoves.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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