[Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf

Mon Jun 8 11:45:35 CDT 2015

From: Joshua Guinto [mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 4:10 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf

Dear Doc Paul

Thanks for your comments I value your thoughts and will consider every bit of them during the next round of refinements. 

Please see my reply in between your lines. 

1.  You wrote:

One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of  canarium shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After each day, about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a market value of Php 37.50 !! Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily. 

Only 0.5 kg weight loss???  And that is only 25% of the original weight of the fuel???   Something seems to not be correct.   Please verify.

Ok surely will soonest. 

2.  Your description indicates that you are trying to save the created char (whatever amount is still there after the cooking is finished) by blocking off the air inlets.   It would be better (IMO) if you simply pulled out the remaining char to be quenched in a bucket with some water or in a truly air-tight container or smothered with sand that also cools the char to where it will not be char-gasifying with the surrounding air.   But do not leave the created char in the stove.   That is asking too much from the stove that has done a wonderful job for cooking, but it is not designed for extinguishing charcoal.   The very smallest amount of incoming air will sustain the char-gasification and consume your char.

I agree. Attached is a photo of putting the hot char in a metal pot and then cover it with the lid. It was very effective in harvesting the char. Please see attached Photo 9530 The remaining issue is about safety, that is the risk tiny bits of hot char falling on the floor or any combustible material somewhere in the kitchen. But let me work on that issue for the coming weeks. 

3.  Your method of operation is correct for adding raw fuel on top of the charcoal that was created.   The HEAT FROM BELOW is pyrolyzing the new fuel (and without any migratory pyrolytic front (MPF)), with the gases rising up and getting to the incoming secondary air for combustion as the cooking fire.   You are correctly NOT trying to cook with the charcoal as the source of cooking heat.   Your method correctly utilizes the height of the riser (internal chimney below the pot).   

Im very glad to know. that i got it correct. Actually what i was trying to achieve is to bring in the fresh fuel under the hot char. But of course the hot char cannot be pushed up. The fresh fuel is either pushing the hot char to the side or the fresh fuel rest on top of the hot char. Either way, the gases rise to the upper coloumn of the chamber, get mixed with secondary air then up to the riser. 

[[[ IF the cooking is to be done by the charcoal, the pot should be placed very close to the burning char, and no new raw biomass fuel would be added.   That way of cooking is with the TChar concept (described at my website for those who do not know this method) which does NOT allow adding more raw biomass during the charcoal-stove stage of cooking. ]]]

I viewed very closely the TChar at your website. It is  a very clever solution, that is having the stove in modules and taking off the gasification compoment and leaving the charcoal stove for cooking with charcoal. I think it is also very much doable with this PaPaBricStove, that is the upper module being taken off. 

4.  Your stove does have two stages or phases of making heat.   The first stage is TLUD, but I think that it is incorrect to say that the second stage that is running as a Rocket stove.   It does not seem to have a shelf for the fuel with air entering under the burning tips of the inserted fuel.   

What you have is (first stage) a TLUD stove with a MPF, and then (second stage) a bottom-burning heat source that pyrolyzes the fresh fuel that is placed upon the column of created charcoal, which is a form of bottom-burning up-draft.   That might be called BBUD, but that acronym is not well established.   It is not a bottom-LIT.    It was lit at the top and the fire reached the bottom and then burning continues at the bottom, but with LIMITED primary air (which is a gasifier characteristic.).   (I have written some about this in the "Micro-gasification Terminology...." document at my website:   www.drtlud.com    (see Quick Picks listing to find the document.)   

i

I would like those communities with access to fuel supply of coco palm fronds and wood sticks utilize this PaPaBricStove with their available fuel. There is a vast such a community of coconuts and wood sticks. To illustrate,  I would like to see coco farmers bringing in bundles of coco palm fronds from their farms in the villages and selling them off at the stalls in public market thereby offsetting the wood charcoal trade. This shift would greatly release the pressure on our remaining forests. Those families producing charcoal will also be released from the hazards of heat fatigue and accidents while carbonizing wood. Let me test it further and will let you know how it goes. 

It is important to understand what is actually happening in your stove.   I think what you are doing will become increasingly common as TLUD stoves are created with interiors (grates, walls, etc.) that can withstand the high heat of char-gasification that is so destructive to metal.  

Yes, gasification gets the stove very very hot. And so at this point, i would like to bring matters of safety in the kitchen. Im persevering on this because of the safety issues i have to deal with households with children playing around the kitchen. Poor households in the Philippines have very limited space  More so in the urban poor communities and the new communities being created for the Typhoon Haiyan surviving families. Scalding and burns among babies and toddlers are among the accidents.I would like to preserve the moments of interaction of the children with their mothers as the food is being prepared in safe kitchen space. 

I now have here on the works bricks with secondary air tunnel embedded. The bricks are placed on top of one another while preserving the connection of the secondary air tunnels coming all the way from below and then shooting up and just below the riser. It is a very tricky process of creating such bricks and it took me several months of attempts. But the big advantage is for the secondary air tunnels to harvest the heat in the stove walls and bringing it up to the combustion zone as pre heated secondary air and at the same time keeping the stove walls cooler.  Will let you know how it goes. 

 YOUR stove greatly overcomes that problem by having a ceramic interior.   Again, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!

Thank you very much Dr. Paul. These words of advice coming from you is very much appreciated. I would also like to thank other bright minds in this stove community from whom i learned: Engr Alexis Belonio, Rok Oblak, Richard Stanley, Dr Larry Winiarski, Dean Still, Art Donnely, Kirk Harris, Joe James, Ron Larson,  Jon and Flip Anderson, Crispin P Piggot, and all those i missed to mention  in the bio list serve, the potters of Tiwi Albay here in the Philippines, my workers and the cooks and mothers of the communities that i serve. 

Joshua B. Guinto
Specialist, Appropriate Technology

MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)

Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008

2015-06-06 11:34 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:

Jed,

Congratulations!!!    well done.   Those of us who have not developed skills for working with clay need people like you with those skills.   Some observations:

1.  You wrote:

One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of  canarium shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After each day, about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a market value of Php 37.50 !! Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily. 

Only 0.5 kg weight loss???  And that is only 25% of the original weight of the fuel???   Something seems to not be correct.   Please verify.

2.  Your description indicates that you are trying to save the created char (whatever amount is still there after the cooking is finished) by blocking off the air inlets.   It would be better (IMO) if you simply pulled out the remaining char to be quenched in a bucket with some water or in a truly air-tight container or smothered with sand that also cools the char to where it will not be char-gasifying with the surrounding air.   But do not leave the created char in the stove.   That is asking too much from the stove that has done a wonderful job for cooking, but it is not designed for extinguishing charcoal.   The very smallest amount of incoming air will sustain the char-gasification and consume your char.

3.  Your method of operation is correct for adding raw fuel on top of the charcoal that was created.   The HEAT FROM BELOW is pyrolyzing the new fuel (and without any migratory pyrolytic front (MPF)), with the gases rising up and getting to the incoming secondary air for combustion as the cooking fire.   You are correctly NOT trying to cook with the charcoal as the source of cooking heat.   Your method correctly utilizes the height of the riser (internal chimney below the pot).   

[[[ IF the cooking is to be done by the charcoal, the pot should be placed very close to the burning char, and no new raw biomass fuel would be added.   That way of cooking is with the TChar concept (described at my website for those who do not know this method) which does NOT allow adding more raw biomass during the charcoal-stove stage of cooking. ]]]

4.  Your stove does have two stages or phases of making heat.   The first stage is TLUD, but I think that it is incorrect to say that the second stage that is running as a Rocket stove.   It does not seem to have a shelf for the fuel with air entering under the burning tips of the inserted fuel.   

What you have is (first stage) a TLUD stove with a MPF, and then (second stage) a bottom-burning heat source that pyrolyzes the fresh fuel that is placed upon the column of created charcoal, which is a form of bottom-burning up-draft.   That might be called BBUD, but that acronym is not well established.   It is not a bottom-LIT.    It was lit at the top and the fire reached the bottom and then burning continues at the bottom, but with LIMITED primary air (which is a gasifier characteristic.).   (I have written some about this in the "Micro-gasification Terminology...." document at my website:   www.drtlud.com    (see Quick Picks listing to find the document.)   

It is important to understand what is actually happening in your stove.   I think what you are doing will become increasingly common as TLUD stoves are created with interiors (grates, walls, etc.) that can withstand the high heat of char-gasification that is so destructive to metal.   YOUR stove greatly overcomes that problem by having a ceramic interior.   Again, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <tel:%2B1-309-452-7072> 
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 6/5/2015 9:53 AM, Joshua Guinto wrote:

My goal is to have a stove that can be manufactured by village artisanal workshops with a regulatory entity that ensures the quality and safety. I also hope that there would be a social enterprise that would support the purchase of the stoves in favor of the struggling food entrepreneur. Finally i would hope that the food business sector will eventually shift towards the use of sustainable fuel supplies and then help regenerate our denuded forests, farms and gardens. 

There is still a long way to go and there are so much that are still a lot unknown.  Thanks for all the questions. I will use them as guideposts towards these discoveries.

Regards

Joshua B. Guinto
Specialist, Appropriate Technology

MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)

Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008

2015-06-05 22:27 GMT+08:00 <cec1863 at gmail.com>:

Bravo on all fronts. Assuming you can get efficiency up and emissions down so that the stove performs well on standard tests and equally well under real conditions of use outside the lab, now the operator, socio-economic, cultural, and environmental performance assessment begins: do we know who your PPBricStove is to be used by? Who will fork over the money to buy it after the performance settles down? Can it be modularized and mass produced or mass crafted in small workshops? Will it fly off out of the store or market stall without subsidy? Does it function well enough to be welcomed into most kitchens in your area and also by small scale commercial food vendors‎ and small scale home 'industrialists"? Can it compete head to head woith well established traditional stoves?

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Joshua Guinto

Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 7:53 AM

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves

Subject: Re: [Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf

Dear Crispin

Thanks for the compliments. 

About the pot rest, its still early to tell as the stove is just a few weeks old. But that will be a good point of observation, that is if it gets coated with sooth or the sooth gets burned all the way. 

I would like to promote the char making mechanism of this stove for several reasons. 

First is the charcoal here at my locality is more expensive than raw fuel. Canarium yields a premium kind of charcoal. The following is my quick computation of the local market prices of fuel and charcoal: 

One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of  canarium shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After each day, about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a market value of Php 37.50 !! Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily. 

Retail stores sell charcoal at Php 10 per 400 gram packets. A family consumes at least 3 packets daily or at least Php 30 daily for wood charcoal for their meals. 

Another reason is because the char from gasification is of higher quality (porosity) than charcoal produced from conventional earth kilns. As an independent consultant, I am actively involved in waste management and urban gardening campaigns at disaster prone communities here in the Philippines. Stoves, bio char, waste management, sanitation and gardening comes  tightly altogether. 

Regards

JEd 

Joshua B. Guinto
Specialist, Appropriate Technology

MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)

Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008

2015-06-05 9:43 GMT+08:00 Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>:

Dear Joshua

I congratulate you on incorporating multiple innovations on the stove. I really like the use of a handful of sand (or grog) as an air controller. Usually available everywhere!

The pot rest looks really strong. Does it get coated with soot?

I am wondering why you are creating charcoal instead of optimising the operating cost. The fuel is purchased and the cost of operation would be reduced if you burned the all fuel purchased. Does anyone want to buy the charcoal from this process?

Thanks
Crispin in Java

 <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com> Joshua Guinto has shared the following PDF:

  <https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/share/images/services/pdf-3.png> 

 <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QmamNABHVRaVdIWTd3QXRoUnc/view?usp=sharing_eid&invite=CNmUnMUN> Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf

 Sender's profilephoto <https://drive.google.com/c/u/0/photos/public/AIbEiAIAAABDCMjLjLyz-__0MiILdmNhcmRfcGhvdG8qKDBjNzc4NjM4Nzc3N2Y2YTU2NmQxNGExNGM4NDViYjQwNWZmODgwNjYwATWlbV54IAwz_WGWZx_CCVQhFoo3> Dear Dr. Paul, Dean, Ron, Art, Anders, Kirk, JJ, Jon, Richard, and Everyone

I hereby share with you the second stage of my work on the brick stove gasifier/carbonizer. It began from the lessons i learned during the 2014 Stove Camp at Aprovecho. where i learned how to overcome the limitations of the holey roket i built. It was then when i realized the low firepower of the stove, the difficulty of feeding the fuel and the fragility during transport.

Please see https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive

>From November 2014 until now, i tinkered with so many fronts:preparing the best clay recipe, pulling in secondary air, making the shape and size of each bricks, creating the moulds, designing the fuel ports, the air controls, the metal shell, the pot rest, harvesting the char etc.

I hereby share with you all my work in the attached photo narrative. At the same time i would like to solicit more comments on how to improve further, Also i would like to find support to have this stove model tested in the laboratory.

A smaller model for the kitchen in now underway on a test manufacturing mode.

Kind regards to everyone.

Jed

Joshua B. GuintoSpecialist, Appropriate Technology
MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008

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