[Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf

Paul Anderson psanders at ilstu.edu
Mon Jun 8 20:23:33 CDT 2015


Jed,

Your reply reveals that your are well in command of what is happening.   
Best wishes, and please keep us all informed.

About TChar, perhaps the biggest disadvantage is that at the time of 
transition from TLUD (MPF) operation to the charcoal burning operation, 
the cook pot needs to be removed, then the upper part (T-Top) needs to 
be remove, then the pot placed on the charcoal burner (T-Bottom).   And 
so, if your upper part is ceramic, it could be weighty and could be 
rather hot (so need cool, warm handles). Only practical experience will 
be able to determine what procedures the cooks will accept.

About the coco palm fronds (and other non-forest biomass as fuel), a key 
point when you introduce your TLUD stove is to encourage people with the 
fronds, etc to become fuel providers.    Literally, a fuel supply chain 
needs to be established.   The farmers do not have the time to do the 
sales of biomass fuel to the individual households. EVERYBODY needs to 
gain a little in the supply chain.   If you as the stove developer and 
manufacturer can play a role to help establish the fuel supply chain, 
that would be a great assist toward establishing these TLUD stoves that 
nicely burn non-traditional fuels if available.

We await your next round of results.

Doc

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 6/8/2015 11:45 AM, jed.building.bridges at gmail.com wrote:
>
> *From:*Joshua Guinto [mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 06, 2015 4:10 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan 
> to June 2015.pdf
>
> Dear Doc Paul
>
> Thanks for your comments I value your thoughts and will consider every 
> bit of them during the next round of refinements.
>
> Please see my reply in between your lines.
>
>
> 1.  You wrote:
>
> /One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of  canarium 
> shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After each day, 
> about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a market value of 
> Php 37.50 !!/ *Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily. *
>
> Only 0.5 kg weight loss???  And that is only 25% of the original 
> weight of the fuel???   Something seems to not be correct.   Please 
> verify.
>
> *Ok surely will soonest. *
>
>
> 2.  Your description indicates that you are trying to save the created 
> char (whatever amount is still there after the cooking is finished) by 
> blocking off the air inlets.   It would be better (IMO) if you simply 
> pulled out the remaining char to be quenched in a bucket with some 
> water or in a truly air-tight container or smothered with sand that 
> also cools the char to where it will not be char-gasifying with the 
> surrounding air.   But do not leave the created char in the stove.   
> That is asking too much from the stove that has done a wonderful job 
> for cooking, but it is not designed for extinguishing charcoal.   The 
> very smallest amount of incoming air will sustain the 
> char-gasification and consume your char.
>
> *I agree. Attached is a photo of putting the hot char in a metal pot 
> and then cover it with the lid. It was very effective in harvesting 
> the char. Please see attached Photo 9530 The remaining issue is about 
> safety, that is the risk tiny bits of hot char falling on the floor or 
> any combustible material somewhere in the kitchen. But let me work on 
> that issue for the coming weeks. *
>
>
> 3.  Your method of operation is correct for adding raw fuel on top of 
> the charcoal that was created.   The HEAT FROM BELOW is pyrolyzing the 
> new fuel (and without any migratory pyrolytic front (MPF)), with the 
> gases rising up and getting to the incoming secondary air for 
> combustion as the cooking fire.   You are correctly NOT trying to cook 
> with the charcoal as the source of cooking heat. Your method correctly 
> utilizes the height of the riser (internal chimney below the pot).
>
> *Im very glad to know. that i got it correct. Actually what i was 
> trying to achieve is to bring in the fresh fuel under the hot char. 
> But of course the hot char cannot be pushed up. The fresh fuel is 
> either pushing the hot char to the side or the fresh fuel rest on top 
> of the hot char. Either way, the gases rise to the upper coloumn of 
> the chamber, get mixed with secondary air then up to the riser. *
>
>
> [[[ *_IF _*the cooking is to be done by the charcoal, the pot should 
> be placed very close to the burning char, and no new raw biomass fuel 
> would be added.   That way of cooking is with the TChar concept 
> (described at my website for those who do not know this method) which 
> does NOT allow adding more raw biomass during the charcoal-stove stage 
> of cooking. ]]]
>
> *I viewed very closely the TChar at your website. It is  a very clever 
> solution, that is having the stove in modules and taking off the 
> gasification compoment and leaving the charcoal stove for cooking with 
> charcoal. I think it is also very much doable with this PaPaBricStove, 
> that is the upper module being taken off. *
>
>
> 4.  Your stove does have two stages or phases of making heat.   The 
> first stage is TLUD, but I think that it is incorrect to say that the 
> second stage that is running as a Rocket stove.   It does not seem to 
> have a shelf for the fuel with air entering under the burning tips of 
> the inserted fuel.
>
> What you have is (first stage) a TLUD stove with a MPF, and then 
> (second stage) a bottom-burning heat source that pyrolyzes the fresh 
> fuel that is placed upon the column of created charcoal, which is a 
> form of bottom-burning up-draft.   That might be called BBUD, but that 
> acronym is not well established.   It is not a bottom-LIT.    It was 
> lit at the top and the fire reached the bottom and then burning 
> continues at the bottom, but with LIMITED primary air (which is a 
> gasifier characteristic.).   (I have written some about this in the 
> "Micro-gasification Terminology...." document at my website: 
> www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>    (see Quick Picks listing to 
> find the document.)
>
> i
>
> *I would like those communities with access to fuel supply of coco 
> palm fronds and wood sticks utilize this PaPaBricStove with their 
> available fuel. There is a vast such a community of coconuts and wood 
> sticks. To illustrate,  I would like to see coco farmers bringing in 
> bundles of coco palm fronds from their farms in the villages and 
> selling them off at the stalls in public market thereby offsetting the 
> wood charcoal trade. This shift would greatly release the pressure on 
> our remaining forests. Those families producing charcoal will also be 
> released from the hazards of heat fatigue and accidents while 
> carbonizing wood. Let me test it further and will let you know how it 
> goes. *
>
>
> It is important to understand what is actually happening in your 
> stove.   I think what you are doing will become increasingly common as 
> TLUD stoves are created with interiors (grates, walls, etc.) that can 
> withstand the high heat of char-gasification that is so destructive to 
> metal.
>
> *Yes, gasification gets the stove very very hot. And so at this point, 
> i would like to bring matters of safety in the kitchen. Im persevering 
> on this because of the safety issues i have to deal with households 
> with children playing around the kitchen. Poor households in the 
> Philippines have very limited space  More so in the urban poor 
> communities and the new communities being created for the Typhoon 
> Haiyan surviving families. Scalding and burns among babies and 
> toddlers are among the accidents.I would like to preserve the moments 
> of interaction of the children with their mothers as the food is being 
> prepared in safe kitchen space.
>
> I now have here on the works bricks with secondary air tunnel 
> embedded. The bricks are placed on top of one another while preserving 
> the connection of the secondary air tunnels coming all the way from 
> below and then shooting up and just below the riser. It is a very 
> tricky process of creating such bricks and it took me several months 
> of attempts. But the big advantage is for the secondary air tunnels to 
> harvest the heat in the stove walls and bringing it up to the 
> combustion zone as pre heated secondary air and at the same time 
> keeping the stove walls cooler.  Will let you know how it goes. *
>
>
>  YOUR stove greatly overcomes that problem by having a ceramic 
> interior.   Again, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!
>
> *Thank you very much Dr. Paul. These words of advice coming from you 
> is very much appreciated. I would also like to thank other bright 
> minds in this stove community from whom i learned: Engr Alexis 
> Belonio, Rok Oblak, Richard Stanley, Dr Larry Winiarski, Dean Still, 
> Art Donnely, Kirk Harris, Joe James, Ron Larson,  Jon and Flip 
> Anderson, Crispin P Piggot, and all those i missed to mention  in the 
> bio list serve, the potters of Tiwi Albay here in the Philippines, my 
> workers and the cooks and mothers of the communities that i serve. *
>
>
> *Joshua B. Guinto
> *Specialist, Appropriate Technology
>
> MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
>
> Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
>
> 2015-06-06 11:34 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu 
> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>>:
>
> Jed,
>
> Congratulations!!!    well done.   Those of us who have not developed 
> skills for working with clay need people like you with those skills.   
> Some observations:
>
> 1.  You wrote:
>
> /One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of  canarium 
> shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After each day, 
> about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a market value of 
> Php 37.50 !!/ *Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily. *
>
> Only 0.5 kg weight loss???  And that is only 25% of the original 
> weight of the fuel??? Something seems to not be correct.   Please verify.
>
> 2.  Your description indicates that you are trying to save the created 
> char (whatever amount is still there after the cooking is finished) by 
> blocking off the air inlets.   It would be better (IMO) if you simply 
> pulled out the remaining char to be quenched in a bucket with some 
> water or in a truly air-tight container or smothered with sand that 
> also cools the char to where it will not be char-gasifying with the 
> surrounding air. But do not leave the created char in the stove.   
> That is asking too much from the stove that has done a wonderful job 
> for cooking, but it is not designed for extinguishing charcoal.   The 
> very smallest amount of incoming air will sustain the 
> char-gasification and consume your char.
>
> 3.  Your method of operation is correct for adding raw fuel on top of 
> the charcoal that was created.   The HEAT FROM BELOW is pyrolyzing the 
> new fuel (and without any migratory pyrolytic front (MPF)), with the 
> gases rising up and getting to the incoming secondary air for 
> combustion as the cooking fire.   You are correctly NOT trying to cook 
> with the charcoal as the source of cooking heat.   Your method 
> correctly utilizes the height of the riser (internal chimney below the 
> pot).
>
> [[[ *_IF _*the cooking is to be done by the charcoal, the pot should 
> be placed very close to the burning char, and no new raw biomass fuel 
> would be added.   That way of cooking is with the TChar concept 
> (described at my website for those who do not know this method) which 
> does NOT allow adding more raw biomass during the charcoal-stove stage 
> of cooking. ]]]
>
> 4.  Your stove does have two stages or phases of making heat.   The 
> first stage is TLUD, but I think that it is incorrect to say that the 
> second stage that is running as a Rocket stove.   It does not seem to 
> have a shelf for the fuel with air entering under the burning tips of 
> the inserted fuel.
>
> What you have is (first stage) a TLUD stove with a MPF, and then 
> (second stage) a bottom-burning heat source that pyrolyzes the fresh 
> fuel that is placed upon the column of created charcoal, which is a 
> form of bottom-burning up-draft.   That might be called BBUD, but that 
> acronym is not well established.   It is not a bottom-LIT.    It was 
> lit at the top and the fire reached the bottom and then burning 
> continues at the bottom, but with LIMITED primary air (which is a 
> gasifier characteristic.).   (I have written some about this in the 
> "Micro-gasification Terminology...." document at my website: 
> www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>    (see Quick Picks listing to 
> find the document.)
>
> It is important to understand what is actually happening in your 
> stove.   I think what you are doing will become increasingly common as 
> TLUD stoves are created with interiors (grates, walls, etc.) that can 
> withstand the high heat of char-gasification that is so destructive to 
> metal.   YOUR stove greatly overcomes that problem by having a ceramic 
> interior.   Again, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu  <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>    
> Skype: paultlud      Phone:+1-309-452-7072  <tel:%2B1-309-452-7072>
> Website:www.drtlud.com  <http://www.drtlud.com>
>
> On 6/5/2015 9:53 AM, Joshua Guinto wrote:
>
>     My goal is to have a stove that can be manufactured by village
>     artisanal workshops with a regulatory entity that ensures the
>     quality and safety. I also hope that there would be a social
>     enterprise that would support the purchase of the stoves in favor
>     of the struggling food entrepreneur. Finally i would hope that the
>     food business sector will eventually shift towards the use of
>     sustainable fuel supplies and then help regenerate our denuded
>     forests, farms and gardens.
>
>     There is still a long way to go and there are so much that are
>     still a lot unknown.  Thanks for all the questions. I will use
>     them as guideposts towards these discoveries.
>
>     Regards
>
>
>     *Joshua B. Guinto
>     *Specialist, Appropriate Technology
>
>     MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
>
>     Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
>
>     2015-06-05 22:27 GMT+08:00 <cec1863 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:cec1863 at gmail.com>>:
>
>     Bravo on all fronts. Assuming you can get efficiency up and
>     emissions down so that the stove performs well on standard tests
>     and equally well under real conditions of use outside the lab, now
>     the operator, socio-economic, cultural, and environmental
>     performance assessment begins: do we know who your PPBricStove is
>     to be used by? Who will fork over the money to buy it after the
>     performance settles down? Can it be modularized and mass produced
>     or mass crafted in small workshops? Will it fly off out of the
>     store or market stall without subsidy? Does it function well
>     enough to be welcomed into most kitchens in your area and also by
>     small scale commercial food vendors‎ and small scale home
>     'industrialists"? Can it compete head to head woith well
>     established traditional stoves?
>
>     Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>
>     *From: *Joshua Guinto
>
>     *Sent: *Friday, June 5, 2015 7:53 AM
>
>     *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>
>     *Reply To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>
>     *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer
>     Jan to June 2015.pdf
>
>     Dear Crispin
>
>     Thanks for the compliments.
>
>     About the pot rest, its still early to tell as the stove is just a
>     few weeks old. But that will be a good point of observation, that
>     is if it gets coated with sooth or the sooth gets burned all the way.
>
>     I would like to promote the char making mechanism of this stove
>     for several reasons.
>
>     First is the charcoal here at my locality is more expensive than
>     raw fuel. Canarium yields a premium kind of charcoal. The
>     following is my quick computation of the local market prices of
>     fuel and charcoal:
>
>     /One set of meal for a person of six require about 2 kg.  of 
>     canarium shells at a cost of Php 8 per meal or Php 24 daily. After
>     each day, about 1.5 kg of char may be harvested and this has a
>     market value of Php 37.50 !!/ Thus a net of Php 13.50 daily.
>
>     Retail stores sell charcoal at Php 10 per 400 gram packets. A
>     family consumes at least 3 packets daily or at least Php 30 daily
>     for wood charcoal for their meals.
>
>     Another reason is because the char from gasification is of higher
>     quality (porosity) than charcoal produced from conventional earth
>     kilns. As an independent consultant, I am actively involved in
>     waste management and urban gardening campaigns at disaster prone
>     communities here in the Philippines. Stoves, bio char, waste
>     management, sanitation and gardening comes tightly altogether.
>
>     Regards
>
>     JEd
>
>
>
>
>
>     *Joshua B. Guinto
>     *Specialist, Appropriate Technology
>
>     MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
>
>     Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
>
>     2015-06-05 9:43 GMT+08:00 Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>     <crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>>:
>
>     Dear Joshua
>
>     I congratulate you on incorporating multiple innovations on the
>     stove. I really like the use of a handful of sand (or grog) as an
>     air controller. Usually available everywhere!
>
>     The pot rest looks really strong. Does it get coated with soot?
>
>     I am wondering why you are creating charcoal instead of optimising
>     the operating cost. The fuel is purchased and the cost of
>     operation would be reduced if you burned the all fuel purchased.
>     Does anyone want to buy the charcoal from this process?
>
>     Thanks
>     Crispin in Java
>
>     Joshua Guinto <mailto:jed.building.bridges at gmail.com> has shared
>     the following PDF:
>
>     Patong Patong The Brick Stove Carbonizer Jan to June 2015.pdf
>     <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QmamNABHVRaVdIWTd3QXRoUnc/view?usp=sharing_eid&invite=CNmUnMUN>
>
>     Sender's profile photoDear Dr. Paul, Dean, Ron, Art, Anders, Kirk,
>     JJ, Jon, Richard, and Everyone
>
>     I hereby share with you the second stage of my work on the brick
>     stove gasifier/carbonizer. It began from the lessons i learned
>     during the 2014 Stove Camp at Aprovecho. where i learned how to
>     overcome the limitations of the holey roket i built. It was then
>     when i realized the low firepower of the stove, the difficulty of
>     feeding the fuel and the fragility during transport.
>
>     Please see https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive
>
>     From November 2014 until now, i tinkered with so many
>     fronts:preparing the best clay recipe, pulling in secondary air,
>     making the shape and size of each bricks, creating the moulds,
>     designing the fuel ports, the air controls, the metal shell, the
>     pot rest, harvesting the char etc.
>
>     I hereby share with you all my work in the attached photo
>     narrative. At the same time i would like to solicit more comments
>     on how to improve further, Also i would like to find support to
>     have this stove model tested in the laboratory.
>
>     A smaller model for the kitchen in now underway on a test
>     manufacturing mode.
>
>     Kind regards to everyone.
>
>     Jed
>
>
>     Joshua B. GuintoSpecialist, Appropriate Technology
>     MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
>     Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
>
>     *Open*
>     <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QmamNABHVRaVdIWTd3QXRoUnc/view?usp=sharing_eid&invite=CNmUnMUN>
>
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>
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