[Stoves] Torrifaction topics Re: Pellet stoves - risks

Wed Sep 9 11:23:15 CDT 2015

Frank,
If there are emissions that derive from fuel directly and then escape
further 'processing' by flame environments by sneaking by , then they might
be called something like primary fuel derived emissions. PFDEs. It is safe
to say, I think,that most of these would be transformed into products of
complete or incomplete combustion in and around the flame. I may be
confused, but this mix would likely have less to do with the fuel than the
environment above fuel.
Hmm
Alex
On 2015-09-09 8:55 AM, "Frank Shields" <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:

> Dear Paul and Stovers,
>
> For ‘user-acceptance’ and ‘market driven’ I would think preparing the fuel
> optimized for your stove that quickly boils water with little dirty
> emissions is one and the same.
>
> I would think that would be drying and, perhaps as Dean has mentioned,
> driving off some of the early volatiles that may pass the secondary before
> complete combustion.
>
> Paul - Do you have information as to the optimum size and shape the
> biomass should be for your stove? That should be determined.
> Then we go to testing the parameters of the biomass like carbon bulk
> density and carbon particle density along with water soluble sugars  and
> lipids that may contribute to poor emissions. It could be as simple as
> soaking and draining out constituents to improve the quality as well as
> heating to drive off the early volatiles.
>
> But first we need to find what it is in the fuel that causes the poor
> emissions. That could be to take some problem biomass and get a baseline
> from testing.
> Then pre-heat to drive off early volatiles and re-test. Then using another
> batch soak in hot water, drain, dry and re-test. And finally soak in a
> solvent, drain, dry and re-test.
>
> Using emissions tests to get ratios of emission components and particles
> might be enough to determine success. Or add helium surrogate to get
> absolute concentrations as they are produced might be info that would help.
>
> Regards
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Frank Shields
> franke at cruzio.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Frank and Stovers,
>
> My simplistic interest in the "induced drying" of biomass fuels is related
> to improving the user-acceptance of the TLUD cookstoves and the
> establishment of some fuel marketing chain.   The degree of drying /
> torrification would be market driven, not related to emissions or technical
> characteristics of the resultant fuels.
>
> As the degree of drying / heating of the fuels increases, the cost of that
> processing will rise.   So I favor the minimum treatment that will benefit
> the customer and will justify the increase in fuel price.
>
> A favorable situation would be to use essentially waste heat to prepare
> the future fuel supplies.  Or expend a small amount of fuel to prepare a
> much larger amount of fuel that will be sold with sustainable profitability.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
>
> On 9/8/2015 3:55 PM, Frank Shields wrote:
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Making batches of different degrees of torrification biofuels is one thing
> and then testing and interpreting the results is another.
> Do we measure success on emissions or time it takes to boil water? And
> them we have other variables like bulk carbon density and particle carbon
> density. Volatiles and adding moisture. Size and shape will be important.
>
> So once we figure out a way of making constant quality material for
> testing there is still a lot of research work to do. Agreeing on what we
> use as a measure of success is the first.
>
> regards
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> Frank Shields
> franke at cruzio.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2015, at 5:32 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> While agreeing with Frank and Dean, I suggest that there are sufficient
> "degrees of torrification" that we should subdivide the discussion.
>
> 1.  Wet or green wood      High moisture content (MC)
> 2.  Dried in 20% MC range
> 3.  Dried to 10% MC or less
> 4.  Kiln dried   (heated to ???? degrees C)
> 5.  Super dried (heated to maybe 120 C)
> 6.  Toasted (slightly browning)    120 to 180 C ???
> 7.  Early torrified                     180 - 240  C ??
> 8.  Fully torrified                240 - 300 C  ??
> 9.  Undergoing pyrolysis     above 300 C ???
> 10.  And then we have different "chars" based on temperatures during
> production, 400 C,  450 C,  550 C, 700 C, 900 C
>
> LOTS of question marks there.   Frank and others can refine this much
> better.    Issues of MC and temperatures and "names" (and related to
> sufficient time to have the heat impact reach the center of the pieces of
> biomass, not just flash heating), and probably more variables.
>
> To just say "torrified" leaves too many uncertainties and possible
> mis-understandings / assumptions by the large number of readers in
> different cultures and with different experiences.
>
> I can say that TLUD stoves (when properly made and with consistent MC in
> the fuels) work very well with the 3, 4, 5, and 6 (above) fuels.   They do
> not like much moisture content, and they do not want the fuel to be already
> partially charred.
>
> Reasonable quality fuel supply is so important for TLUD acceptance.   More
> work could be done about this.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 9/5/2015 11:45 PM, Frank Shields wrote:
>
> Dear Dean, Stovers,
>
> I have not worked with stoves but working with all types of pellets
> (paper, manures, etc.) and good quality wood pellets I find they burn in
> pipes very poorly and seem they are really just good for pellet stoves
> dropping in one at a time.
> I think you may be on to something in regards to torrifying to some extent
> before using to get a cleaner combustion. I see the real challenge is
> quality control because torrification takes place in a very narrow range
> and it is so easy to have a ‘run-a-way’ combustion that heats higher than
> the setting you want. I was able to achieve that in my pipes but only after
> much practice and   s l o w l y    raising the temperature to desired
> amount. Not sure how this would be done commercially.  It would be a very
> interesting project.
>
> We also may be able to get clean combustion by finding constituents in the
> pellets (and all biomass for that matter) that create these large organic
> volatile structures that give problems and eliminate them from the fuel.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Frank Shields
> franke at cruzio.com
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> After limited experience in Uganda and China my experience is that it's
> not easy to make clean burning recipes for biomass pellets.
>
> Seems like the torrified pellets emit less PM but we need to do more tests.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Frank Shields < <franke at cruzio.com>
> franke at cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Chispin and stovers
>>
>>
>> Of course no mention of the quality of the pellets! In the U.S. The go
>> through standard testing and results labeled
>> On bags. But pellets are made of all sorts of materials and energy values
>> and volatile profiles.   It would seem this would be part of the
>> discussion.
>> Thanks
>> Frank
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:13 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>> <crispinpigott at outlook.com>crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Friends
>>
>>
>> There is a broad move around the world to create pelleted fuel from
>> biomass and burn it in tighter spaces. This report was noted in the
>> Alliance for Green Heat newsletter:
>>
>>
>> *Updated on the Mt. Vernon pellet stove recall*
>> <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001d7dcszljjgfEKYA31aaHyRsMRRejQSaDUDJHpy5B3lPW1W0QcteHERbDFukIhEc2-_1cKtvym49J_ai7zvt1WWN26UenG3N6joIskOVraQhcc__S5dpEwVlcw8pbpwWuwRufyvZSstnraBJTXAbr2wOPL-tX7Wypj3swduscC5I1Staun8b2olWMeGwuEsLEKsSA0qsYd2J1B5b7fDXOH7vLn_jPI3y12xty5nULquL9LCJu6LE7P-Ysu5qiL45LFwfyKNL4feu5XOzEawUh0a7X5VAZM8fb7F4K1l1kHGeFIFftvkxNTEEi9J_I05V6LKmiIZSk4GOQXJRAMRf5NDba52L-Wn_9jVkbpqju9Kifq8bMZm_xowV5Qn2NerYbUfu00_a4isbrvL9gktLkSQ==&c=WnPhxOQ3V-ic1ZJ3NBDpcipfRPq-UdIrBKPYwMfkxe-_CRS45fkQ4w==&ch=gnDbpciWOWhz6yV0o8Zdcoli15r_rpgR21xk0iBJKKi_KYRnwLVmTw==>
>>
>> Last month, we reported on the recall of 2,000 Mt. Vernon E2 pellet
>> stoves after about 6 experienced explosions that shattered the glass in the
>> front door. No injuries have been reported. The Alliance wrote to HHT
>> asking for clarifications about what caused the malfunction and whether the
>> stove would be 3rd party tested again for safety. *Click here*
>> <http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001d7dcszljjgfEKYA31aaHyRsMRRejQSaDUDJHpy5B3lPW1W0QcteHEfKhE4oT8BuuAHDwJ1L0g7GrKo5I0xEbbDvkpCt65Xds638GUTKpc9WxdvAozGBIprVOl7vL1wQKB10dTQFUofpAQnr3z9i2zwxCfiQA3rCg4PVvKxSMWgMWDhYiC_fJ7rGJlBpUwsdpb9A-KCa9c_WZg3sRbG1GpSOEsBvotEVw3FLKELU68l1aktAt4KqIrr-AbESuj8iSP6u9wdRQU3L5aMshSI5ocFejIUjrSB94PP9Q2h_zrmWcq3brFPbj1VqWZSiFfmDp50WpCw2b2SOvJ-9NqzbOgn8sgdzIHO2tNWqczgkuFI6d7bzwPt4D_g==&c=WnPhxOQ3V-ic1ZJ3NBDpcipfRPq-UdIrBKPYwMfkxe-_CRS45fkQ4w==&ch=gnDbpciWOWhz6yV0o8Zdcoli15r_rpgR21xk0iBJKKi_KYRnwLVmTw==>
>> for a copy of the HHT response.
>>
>>
>> The drive to create better combustion often means having a staged
>> gasification-then-burning type of design. That may be a source of problems.
>>
>>
>> I know of at least one instance of a very modern TLUD coal stove
>> explosion in Ulaanbaatar when the operator refuelled it with a significant
>> amount of lignite (high volatiles) while it was already very hot. This
>> generated a huge amount of combustible gas while simultaneously
>> extinguishing the gas flame.  Eventually it heated up to the point that the
>> gas ignited and it blew flaming fuel out of the top of the stove, around
>> the room.  A public education campaign tried to prevent exactly this sort
>> of mis-operation.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Dean Still
> Executive Director
> Aprovecho Research Center
> PO Box 1175
> 76132 Blue Mountain School Road
> Cottage Grove, OR 97424
> (541) 767-0287
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