[Stoves] Rights about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves] Notes on Biochar-Stove List Structure #2
Paul Anderson
psanders at ilstu.edu
Sat Sep 12 10:39:55 CDT 2015
Jed, Art and all, Note: this Thread started on Biochar-stove
ListServ and I am cross-posting to the Stoves Listserv because it
relates to that larger audience also. ( a Dr
TLUD posting to that website)
My experience during the evolution of the TLUD stoves (plural, with MANY
stove variations) is that very few people want to exactly copy or
replicate what someone else has done. That can be frustrating to the
initial developers because they tend to see the new efforts as a step
backward or a deviation. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If objectively
"tested" in practical ways, many of the small incremental changes can
eventually become widely accepted.
Using JED's product as an example: There could be changes in one or
more of the nine pieces. He might or might not like the changes. That
is part of the price of freely sharing. And as things evolve, the
chances are very slim of JED getting any financial reward from some
evolved product in a far away country. And the person there would like
to have some reward from his or her product, but chances of financial
reward are also unlikely, even to make a sustainable income locally by
creating a job for that person or a small group of tinsmiths or potters.
These cookstoves are not products with high margins for profit. In
general, people and companies do NOT copy the products of others unless
the prospects of good solid profits are proven, and by definition that
means that the originator has proven profitability. People copy
success, not effort.
Every once in a while there is a "business" established for making a
stove. That business will not last very long if it does not pay its
bills (or cannot please its financial supporters). In the TLUD world,
when BP made the Oorja stove, nobody copied it. The Prime Stove is in
production in Indonesia and (I believe) it has reasonable success, but
nobody is copying it. Servals makes the Champion stove, but identical
copies are not being made. But there is a series of "Champion-style"
TLUDs that include the Mwoto, Quad, and Troika designs that maintain
basically the same proportional dimensions as the original Champion in
2005. Please copy it!! and show us your enhancements.
In the category of "fan-jet" (high turbulence) micro-gasifers (which are
not TLUDs, by the way), there are five known companies with different
cookstove products and they all claim patented rights: Philips/ACE,
Biolite, Worldstove Lucia-FA, Turbo-cosina, and SalvaBosque. But
nobody is copying the other very closely and nobody else is likely to
try to make a direct "knock off" copy because none are so financially
successful to merit those efforts.
Several times per month I hear or read comments about possible stove
projects that cannot get funding because the "entities with the money"
want some form of "proprietary rights" to protect their investment
because they fear that when the product is so successful that others
will enter the marketplace without any compensation to the early
"investors". BOGUS thinking on their part:
1. Not When successful, but IF successful. A big*IF.*
2. Some agencies are mandated to help development efforts, but they can
only think about protecting their investment (as if the money was out of
their personal pockets or from their high salaries). They let the
others, the innovators, bear the risks and early expenses.
3. They are not interested in the lest with putting some of that
(possible) gain back into the pockets of the people who did the pioneer
work to bring things up to the point of investments by outsiders.
4. In the TLUD world, for the beginning 30 years ago, Reed, Wendelbo,
Larson, Miles, English, Anderson, Belonio, Donnelly, Harris, and on and
on and on have ALL clearly shared their information, so the likelihood
of some patent being defensible about TLUD technology is very very low.
_Maybe _some design patent could be obtained, but for the thousands of
dollars to get a patent and then defend it in one country and in many
countries, the legal fees investment is unlikely to be recovered.
But hey, to everyone, if you have the golden key or the magic touch to
solve the world's cookstove problems, you will be a hero and worth every
dollar you can make!!! We do not object if you can be successful
financially. But in the meantime, please continue to freely share your
inspirations and experiences.
Basically, a specific design is like a religious faith or sect.
a. It was derived from some previous thinking or writings (so it must
protect its history while claiming to have added something new).
b. But it does not tolerate deviation from the faith (or design)
because that would be heresy and lack of respect for the originator of
that sect or design.
c. Deviates or derivations (or subsequent designs by others) might not
be welcome (especially if there is no "payback" to the parent).
In our case, the "TLUD faith" is quite accepting of the many variations
(or derivations). Let's keep it that way. We do not need to be
equally excited about every variation. And we are actively watching
and assisting so the there is continual progress along many fronts.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 9/11/2015 5:38 PM, Joshua Guinto wrote:
> Dear Art and everyone,
>
> Thanks for the initiative.
>
> That is very true Art. All my creations come from a hard earned
> savings which are supposed to pay for domestic bills and family
> expenses. Huge efforts beginning from the research, seminars,
> conversations, exchange, designing, fabrication, testing, renovations,
> and promotions. But development workers like us do this in a dual
> mission of sharing, and sustaining. We can only share so much from
> what we have. And so it really hurts when someone runs away with the
> hard earned efforts and when the sharing stops. Which is why i want to
> be assured that all my work will go to the rightful people and not be
> robbed and claimed by the rich and powerful.
>
> One mechanism i propose is to install a filtering system. That is
> about knowing who openly shares and knowing those who simply extracts
> and runs. That way we protect the spirit of open sharing to the
> rightful members of this community. Its is very difficult to do since
> this is an open source community and we would not know what happens
> after the conversation. But please allow me to "sow the seed" as an idea.
>
> Talking about business.... my stove, the PapaBrick Stove is not
> practical to sell. Not all the way from the Philippines. Instead what
> i am thinking is to sell the stove as a Training of Trainers kit or
> like a factory in a box. It would be a small box which contains all
> the DIY manuals and then the miniature stove model from the 3D print
> out of all the nine (9) brick pieces. The 3d prints is important as it
> will enable people who are less computer tech savvy to interpret the
> design. The complete set can be manufactured here in the Philippines
> (or a team anywhere in the world, or even from your place Art, if you
> have a 3d printer) and shipped off to the clients. I can send all the
> details from here and someone from your end prints out all the manuals
> and all the brick pieces and put them all in a beautiful ready to go
> box. I want this box to reach the far ends of the world where it is
> most needed especially those communities recovering from conflict or
> natural disasters.
>
> The other product could be simply to sell the construction manual very
> much like that of the Richard Stanley"s Legacy Foundation Grocery on
> line.
>
>
> My best regards to everyone.
>
> Jed Guinto
> Philippines
>
>
> *Joshua B. Guinto
> *Specialist, Appropriate Technology
> MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
> Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008*
> *
> Recipient, International Fellowships Programme Award (IFP) 2005
> Ford Foundation *
> *
>
>
> 2015-09-11 13:10 GMT-07:00 art donnelly
> <biocharstoves-80aeu at wiggiomail.com
> <mailto:biocharstoves-80aeu at wiggiomail.com>>:
>
> Hi all,
> How are you? It's hard to accept that it is nearing the end of
> summer here in the northern hemisphere. I love the sun and our
> biochar enhanced garden has been glorious.
> The last couple of weeks has seen some interesting posts on our
> Biochar-Stove project Forum. The posts regarding Servals'
> Indiegogo campaign, give me the opportunity to clarify my thinking
> on ways the public space we are creating together can be used.
> In order to be of utility to people trying to make projects happen
> on the ground, trying to survive while designing and building
> stoves, needing to cover their living expenses while acting as a
> teacher and ambassador for the Biochar Technology Cluster, this
> list has to openly talk about where the money comes from to make
> this work possible. We are going to put an emphasis on the
> day-to-day, practical, realities of initiating and implementing
> successful projects. So, we are going to talk business. Obviously,
> as a community we need to watch that all postings stay relevant
> and within the bounds of sharing. I count on you all to be honest
> and vocal about postings that you do not find appropriate.
> In the best of cases, this type of communication will lead to us
> collaborating to support each other. Here is our 1st example:
> SeaChar will be providing Servals with "perks" for their current
> Indiegogo campaign. We will be shipping biochar soaps and masks to
> donors in North America. You can see that product here:
> http://shop.seachar.org/collections/all Mission related product is
> one way we are funding our project work.
> In future cases, I hope that this Forum will be a meeting place
> for those producing biochar-stoves and those planning project
> supply chains and in need of well designed technology for their
> projects. I also think many of us may see opportunities in
> co-marketing our products and services
>
> So, this "Market-place" like function is one of the resources the
> forum could provide to our community. What do you all think of
> this? What other kinds of resource sharing could we foster using
> the forum?
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
>
> Wiggio <https://wiggio.com/>
>
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