[Stoves] Rights about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves] Notes on Biochar-Stove List Structure #2

Richard Stanley rstanley at legacyfound.org
Sun Sep 13 13:24:58 CDT 2015


Patent what exactly for whom eh ?we experience same issues in the biomass briquette extexsion efforts. Conclude very similar things with a few nuances:
1) agreed most will seek to adapt to their locally available  resource situation. You protect  
2) Patenting an intentionally global distribution of lo tech or at least intentionally easily replicable tech is a non starter feeding only the legal profession.
3) Shipping warehousing and management of production is generally not what the innovator is equipped to do well.

4)still we need tobe compensated for our own unique contributions. 
My own conclusion is to simply publish plans and operation maintenance instructions based on not only an idea i and a few other tecchies cooked up but  a product or technique embellished by real world user experience with due credit to contributers . We also add references to any interested manufacturers. 

This tends to encourage  localised accountable capitalism globally witout the kind of image posturing and branding  agenda of a centralised operaton.

It works folks.
Richard Stanley 
Www.legacyfound.org

Coming soon manual for the Molino ta Mano for processing ag and commercial residues --For wet process briquetting;






Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2015, at 08:39, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

Jed, Art and all,         Note:  this Thread started on    Biochar-stove ListServ     and I am cross-posting to the Stoves Listserv because it relates to that larger audience also.                           ( a Dr TLUD posting to that website)

My experience during the evolution of the TLUD stoves (plural, with MANY stove variations) is that very few people want to exactly copy or replicate what someone else has done.  That can be frustrating to the initial developers because they tend to see the new efforts as a step backward or a deviation.  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.   If objectively "tested" in practical ways, many of the small incremental changes can eventually become widely accepted.   

Using JED's product as an example:  There could be changes in one or more of the nine pieces.   He might or might not like the changes.   That is part of the price of freely sharing.   And as things evolve, the chances are very slim of JED getting any financial reward from some evolved product in a far away country.   And the person there would like to have some reward from his or her product, but chances of financial reward are also unlikely, even to make a sustainable income locally by creating a job for that person or a small group of tinsmiths or potters.   

These cookstoves are not products with high margins for profit.   In general, people and companies do NOT copy the products of others unless the prospects of good solid profits are proven, and by definition that means that the originator has proven profitability.   People copy success, not effort.

Every once in a while there is a "business" established for making a stove.   That business will not last very long if it does not pay its bills (or cannot please its financial supporters).   In the TLUD world, when BP made the Oorja stove, nobody copied it.   The Prime Stove is in production in Indonesia and (I believe) it has reasonable success, but nobody is copying it.   Servals makes the Champion stove, but identical copies are not being made.   But there is a series of "Champion-style" TLUDs that include the Mwoto, Quad, and Troika designs that maintain basically the same proportional dimensions as the original Champion in 2005.  Please copy it!!  and show us your enhancements. 

In the category of "fan-jet" (high turbulence) micro-gasifers (which are not TLUDs, by the way), there are five known companies with different cookstove products and they all claim patented rights:   Philips/ACE, Biolite, Worldstove Lucia-FA, Turbo-cosina, and SalvaBosque.   But nobody is copying the other very closely and nobody else is likely to try to make a direct "knock off" copy because none are so financially successful to merit those efforts.  

Several times per month I hear or read comments about possible stove projects that cannot get funding because the "entities with the money" want some form of "proprietary rights" to protect their investment because they fear that when the product is so successful that others will enter the marketplace without any compensation to the early "investors".   BOGUS thinking on their part:
1.   Not When successful, but IF successful.   A big IF.

2.  Some agencies are mandated to help development efforts, but they can only think about protecting their investment (as if the money was out of their personal pockets or from their high salaries).  They let the others, the innovators, bear the risks and early expenses.  

3.  They are not interested in the lest with putting some of that (possible) gain back into the pockets of the people who did the pioneer work to bring things up to the point of investments by outsiders.

4.  In the TLUD world, for the beginning 30 years ago, Reed, Wendelbo, Larson, Miles, English, Anderson, Belonio, Donnelly, Harris, and on and on and on have ALL clearly shared their information, so the likelihood of some patent being defensible about TLUD technology is very very low.   Maybe some design patent could be obtained, but for the thousands of dollars to get a patent and then defend it in one country and in many countries, the legal fees investment is unlikely to be recovered.

But hey, to everyone, if you have the golden key or the magic touch to solve the world's cookstove problems, you will be a hero and worth every dollar you can make!!!   We do not object if you can be successful financially.   But in the meantime, please continue to freely share your inspirations and experiences.

Basically, a specific design is like a religious faith or sect.   

a.  It was derived from some previous thinking or writings (so it must protect its history while claiming to have added something new).   

b.  But it does not tolerate deviation from the faith (or design) because that would be heresy and lack of respect for the originator of that sect or design.

c.  Deviates or derivations (or subsequent designs by others) might not be welcome (especially if there is no "payback" to the parent).

In our case, the "TLUD faith" is quite accepting of the many variations (or derivations).   Let's keep it that way.  We do not need to be equally excited about every variation.   And we are actively watching and assisting so the there is continual progress along many fronts.

Paul
Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   
Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com
> On 9/11/2015 5:38 PM, Joshua Guinto wrote:
> Dear Art and everyone, 
> 
> Thanks for the initiative. 
> 
> That is very true Art. All my creations come from a hard earned savings which are supposed to pay for domestic bills and family expenses. Huge efforts beginning from the research, seminars, conversations, exchange, designing, fabrication, testing, renovations, and promotions. But development workers like us do this in a dual mission of sharing, and sustaining. We can only share so much from what we have. And so it really hurts when someone runs away with the hard earned efforts and when the sharing stops.  Which is why i want to be assured that all my work will go to the rightful people and not be robbed and claimed by the rich and powerful.
> 
> One mechanism i propose is to install a filtering system. That is about knowing who openly shares and knowing those who simply extracts and runs. That way we protect the spirit of open sharing to the rightful members of this community. Its is very difficult to do since this is an open source community and we would not know what happens after the conversation. But please allow me to "sow the seed" as an idea. 
> 
> Talking about business.... my stove, the PapaBrick Stove is not practical to sell. Not all the way from the Philippines. Instead what i am thinking is to sell the stove as a Training of Trainers kit or like a factory in a box. It would be a small box which contains all the DIY manuals and then the miniature stove model from the 3D print out of all the nine (9) brick pieces. The 3d prints is important as it will enable people who are less computer tech savvy to interpret the design. The complete set can be manufactured here in the Philippines (or a team anywhere in the world, or even from your place Art, if you have a 3d printer) and shipped off to the clients. I can send all the details from here and someone from your end prints out all the manuals and all the brick pieces and put them all in a beautiful ready to go box. I want this box to reach the far ends of the world where it is most needed especially those communities recovering from conflict or natural disasters.  
> 
> The other product could be simply to sell the construction manual very much like that of the Richard Stanley"s Legacy Foundation Grocery on line. 
> 
> 
> My best regards to everyone. 
> 
> Jed Guinto
> Philippines
> 
> 
> Joshua B. Guinto
> Specialist, Appropriate Technology
> MSc Management of AgroEcological Knowledge and Social Change (MAKS)
> Wageningen University, The Netherlands 2006 to 2008
> Recipient, International Fellowships Programme  Award (IFP) 2005
> Ford Foundation 
> 
> 
> 2015-09-11 13:10 GMT-07:00 art donnelly <biocharstoves-80aeu at wiggiomail.com>:
>> Hi all, 
>> How are you? It's hard to accept that it is nearing the end of summer here in the northern hemisphere. I love the sun and our biochar enhanced garden has been glorious. 
>> The last couple of weeks has seen some interesting posts on our Biochar-Stove project Forum. The posts regarding Servals' Indiegogo campaign, give me the opportunity to clarify my thinking on ways the public space we are creating together can be used. 
>> In order to be of utility to people trying to make projects happen on the ground, trying to survive while designing and building stoves, needing to cover their living expenses while acting as a teacher and ambassador for the Biochar Technology Cluster, this list has to openly talk about where the money comes from to make this work possible. We are going to put an emphasis on the day-to-day, practical, realities of initiating and implementing successful projects. So,                   we are going to talk business. Obviously, as a community we need to watch that all postings stay relevant and within the bounds of sharing. I count on you all to be honest and vocal about postings that you do not find appropriate. 
>> In the best of cases, this type of communication will lead to us collaborating to support each other. Here is our 1st example: 
>> SeaChar will be providing Servals with "perks" for their current Indiegogo campaign. We will be shipping biochar soaps and masks to donors in North America. You can see that product here: http://shop.seachar.org/collections/all Mission related product is one way we are funding our project work. 
>> In future cases, I hope that this Forum will be a meeting place for those producing biochar-stoves and those planning project supply chains and in need of well designed technology for their projects. I also think many of us may see opportunities in co-marketing our products and services 
>> 
>> So, this "Market-place" like function is one of the resources the forum could provide to our community. What do you all think of this? What other kinds of resource sharing could we foster using the forum? 
>> Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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