[Stoves] Coal and biochar stoves

Sat Sep 26 05:50:46 CDT 2015

(y)   oh, they're  only poison if they actually poison someone, says 
ye!?! it's all a question of the internalized and localized 
concentration? in what way is this like thinking? thank you Philip!

On 26.09.2015 12:36, Philip Lloyd wrote:
>
> I just love “possibly poisonous particles.” Alliteration’s artful aid 
> strikes again! But try looking at things from the other end.  People 
> have been burning biomass for thousands of years.  There are three 
> possible reasons for its continued use:
>
> 1.We have evolved resistance to the PPP
>
> 2.We die before the awful effects of PPP become apparent; or
>
> 3.The effects of PPP were not awful to start with.
>
> Take your pick – whichever you choose, the end result is the same.  
> First identify the real problem, then real debate is possible.  
> Putative problems proliferate, and produce poor productivity.
>
> Philip Lloyd
>
> *From:*Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Ronald Hongsermeier
> *Sent:* 26 September 2015 12:01
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Coal and biochar stoves
>
> Hi all,  don't want to complicate things unnecessarily, but isn't it 
> axiomatic that even the same species of biomass grow in a radically 
> different nutrient environment (soil) will have different levels of 
> possible poisonous particles in the burnoff?
>
> regards,
> Ron von Oktoberfestsafedistance
>
> On 24.09.2015 21:05, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>
>     Dear Todd
>
>     You raise an interesting point and it should not be missed.
>
>     Wood and coal both contain mercury, sulphur, lead, uranium and
>     other heavy metals, and the fire emissions contain fly
>     ash‎,polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, numerous chemical species,
>     and particles of incomplete combustion including condensed volatiles.
>
>     It would not be fair to ignore the emissions from any fire. Also
>     it is unfair to require testing on coal fires and not wood fires.
>     The inherent emissions are different for different fuels.
>     Categories of fuel include:
>
>     Wood
>
>     Other biomass
>
>     Peat lignite
>
>     Coal
>
>     Semi-coked fuels
>
>     Coke
>
>     Charcoal
>
>     Densified biomass
>
>     Torrefied wood
>
>     The toxic contents occur in different concentrations and
>     combinations. It is reasonable to assess fuels individually. There
>     are toxic woods and toxic coals. There are toxic emissions.
>     Toxicity is strongly dependent on concentration.
>
>     When you consider what and how well something needs to be burned
>     one rule should apply to all. No pet fuels.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Crispin
>
>     Stovers:
>
>     I'm confused.  Coal & Biomass stove disconnect?  No one is
>     discussing the dissimilarities.
>
>     Is this a logical?  The discussion of coal combustion must address
>     Mercury, fly ash and other heavy metal pollution, not just run of
>     the mill biomass combustion pollution.  Water and air pollution
>     contamination are other major health concerns.  Mining and
>     transporting coal has wide documented health impacts.
>
>     Don't we have to ask although coal maybe combusted cleanly with
>     very well designed stove compared to an inefficient coal stoves,
>     advanced scrubber technologies are not affordable or practical for
>     household stoves.
>
>     Do any of the biomass stove testing entities have or can afford
>     coal emission testing technologies?  Currently I am not aware of
>     any biomass testing organization that has the sophistication or
>     equipment for heavy metal emission testing, or am I incorrect?
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Todd Albi, SilverFire,
>
>     On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com
>     <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Stovers,
>
>     Coal and biomass stoves:
>
>     Similarities:
>
>     1) They both have the same goal of producing a clean secondary
>     flame used to boil water.
>     2) They both have achieved this goal (Crispin and Dean - and others)
>     3) They both have the three types of energy: a) pyrolysis gases b)
>     solid-C > CO and c) CO > CO2
>     4) During optimization the three energy types are adjusted via
>     primary air to produce the best ratio.
>
>     Because they are so much the same and manipulated the same to
>     optimize conditions for the secondary I believe the coal stoves
>     should be included in our discussions. They start with different
>     ratios of the three energy types and it would be very interesting
>     (to me) to know what the ratio is just before entering the
>     secondary flame when burning clean. I wonder if they are the same
>     or if we can learn ranges and limits to the ratios we need to
>     achieve. As we get better testing techniques to study what goes on
>     in combustion chambers it would aid us to include the info from
>     coal stoves.
>
>     Real problem is Stove Labs need more money!  That to purchase
>     testing equipment for their research, added personal and they
>     should be testing more stoves.
>
>     as I see it…
>
>     Regards
>
>     Frank
>
>     franke at cruzio.com <mailto:franke at cruzio.com>
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