[Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

Sun Aug 14 23:38:52 CDT 2016

Dear Crispin,
this stove was developed by my daughter  She is the one to answer your
questions.
Yours
A.D.Karve

***
Dr. A.D. Karve

Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)

Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear AD
>
> That is a nice piece of work.
>
> Have you encountered problems relating to the steam raising system? If so,
> what are they?
>
> How much water is used per kg of wood used?
>
> Do you think the heat transfer efficiency is improved by having a higher
> water vapour content?
>
> What big advantage does it bring to the stove? It seems to be that the
> power is much higher with the steam driver air engaged. It appeared to have
> a regulator on the steam outlet. Is that correct? Or is it a jet-tuning
> function to vary the air induction efficiency?
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
>
>
> Dear Stovers,
> we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for
> restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video
> at www.samuchit.com.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
>
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
>
> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
>
> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An exhaust
> fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for decades
> in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such "commercial
> cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire increment of
> food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world (collectively) in
> the last sixty years.
>
> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of a
> store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was
> lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove
> from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said
> something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible
> to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
>
> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and
> using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows -
> are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind
> followers of published statistics.
>
> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion - combustion
> temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in  solid fuel
> cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics.
>
> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In response
> to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
> capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
>
> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of
> cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid
> or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery
> electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and
> what is the total potential market in 10 years?
>
> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and
> globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters.
>
> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of
> Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken
> vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor
> in the mean time, get rich and start sinning.
>
> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice Cooker
> Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy
> <http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-exports-decline-china-looks-inward-for-growth-selling-made-in-china-goods-to-the-middle-class-1470238429>
> . Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in
> Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban
> China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes
> washers, irons.)
>
> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years (DALYs)
> from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power is a
> wonderful boon.
>
> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a huge
> producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances,
> <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indonesia-kitchen-appliances-market-to-grow-at-cagr-16-till-2021-techsci-research-report-588142792.html>
> processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved
> woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and
> on for?
>
> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples", "tastes."
> Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the meals.
> They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are
> exceptions).
>
> For a change, we might start talking about service standards, objectives,
> market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving them. That would
> require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as Dr. Kishore said
> in the Up in Smoke news item.
>
> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for
> PV-induction cooking.
>
> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper", but
> rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs considered.
>
> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive
> average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice
> with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30
> USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost
> basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users
> are likely to prefer.
>
> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking
> with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that
> for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and
> charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas
> (large cities), or eat out.
>
> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant
> on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet?
> (Xavier Brandao had the right question.)
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
>
> ---------
> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to capture
> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years? That's
> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>
> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>
> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
> >
> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is becoming
> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan, for
> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another battery
> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection. (I am
> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected households
> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel power
> in
> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
> >batteries.)
>
> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>
> AJH
>
>
>
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