[Stoves] Fwd: PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

Anand Karve adkarve at gmail.com
Tue Aug 16 23:00:54 MDT 2016


***
Dr. A.D. Karve

Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)

Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Priyadarshini Karve <priyadarshini.karve at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)
To: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>


The stove comes in various capacities. The most popular model, which is
selling to restaurants, hostels, etc., consumes about 2-3 kg firewood per
hr, and 100 ml of water per hr.

It is important to understand that the main purpose of the steamer
arrangement is not inserting steam into the fire, but to simulate forced
draft. The steam is released through a nozzle just in front of the pipe
where normally a blower would be connected. This creates a low pressure
area at the mouth of the pipe, which sucks in air from outside between the
two walls of the fuel chamber. The inner wall also has a series of holes,
through which the air rushing in is introduced into the fire. There will be
some water vapour in the air, so that is an added bonus for us, but the
main purpose is to get the forced draft. We do not have any idea how much
of the improved combustion is due to the forced draft and how much due to
the water vapour (or even whether the water vapour is any significant
factor at all!).

The regulator is for regulating the rate of passing water through the
heating coils, and allows a little bit of flame control, with a few minutes
time lag.

Regards,

Priya


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Crispin,
> this stove was developed by my daughter  She is the one to answer your
> questions.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
>
> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear AD
>>
>> That is a nice piece of work.
>>
>> Have you encountered problems relating to the steam raising system? If
>> so, what are they?
>>
>> How much water is used per kg of wood used?
>>
>> Do you think the heat transfer efficiency is improved by having a higher
>> water vapour content?
>>
>> What big advantage does it bring to the stove? It seems to be that the
>> power is much higher with the steam driver air engaged. It appeared to have
>> a regulator on the steam outlet. Is that correct? Or is it a jet-tuning
>> function to vary the air induction efficiency?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Stovers,
>> we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for
>> restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video
>> at www.samuchit.com.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>>
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>>
>> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>>
>> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
>>
>> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An
>> exhaust fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for
>> decades in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such
>> "commercial cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire
>> increment of food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world
>> (collectively) in the last sixty years.
>>
>> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of
>> a store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was
>> lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove
>> from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said
>> something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible
>> to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
>>
>> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and
>> using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows -
>> are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind
>> followers of published statistics.
>>
>> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion - combustion
>> temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in  solid fuel
>> cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics.
>>
>> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In
>> response to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
>> capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
>>
>> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of
>> cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid
>> or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery
>> electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and
>> what is the total potential market in 10 years?
>>
>> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and
>> globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters.
>>
>> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of
>> Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken
>> vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor
>> in the mean time, get rich and start sinning.
>>
>> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice
>> Cooker Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy
>> <http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-exports-decline-china-looks-inward-for-growth-selling-made-in-china-goods-to-the-middle-class-1470238429>
>> . Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in
>> Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban
>> China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes
>> washers, irons.)
>>
>> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years (DALYs)
>> from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power is a
>> wonderful boon.
>>
>> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a
>> huge producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances,
>> <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indonesia-kitchen-appliances-market-to-grow-at-cagr-16-till-2021-techsci-research-report-588142792.html>
>> processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved
>> woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and
>> on for?
>>
>> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples",
>> "tastes." Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the
>> meals. They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are
>> exceptions).
>>
>> For a change, we might start talking about service standards, objectives,
>> market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving them. That would
>> require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as Dr. Kishore said
>> in the Up in Smoke news item.
>>
>> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for
>> PV-induction cooking.
>>
>> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper", but
>> rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs considered.
>>
>> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive
>> average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice
>> with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30
>> USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost
>> basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users
>> are likely to prefer.
>>
>> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking
>> with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that
>> for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and
>> charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas
>> (large cities), or eat out.
>>
>> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant
>> on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet?
>> (Xavier Brandao had the right question.)
>>
>> Nikhil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------
>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
>> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to capture
>> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years? That's
>> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>>
>> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>>
>> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
>> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
>> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
>> >
>> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
>> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is becoming
>> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan, for
>> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another battery
>> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
>> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection. (I
>> am
>> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected households
>> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel power
>> in
>> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
>> >batteries.)
>>
>> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
>> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
>> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
>> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
>> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
>> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
>> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
>> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>>
>>
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>


-- 
Dr. Priyadarshini Karve

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