[Stoves] stove test
Ronald Hongsermeier
rwhongser at web.de
Tue May 31 01:10:52 CDT 2016
kg,
wondering why my mail program labeled your (this) post as spam.
ronald von wunderbayern
On 31.05.2016 08:07, kgharris wrote:
> Crispin,
> My original statement was to point out how the increase in ambient
> room temperature had changed the turn-down performance of the stove.
> This is an important topic if the stove principles are going to have
> any effect in hot tropical countries. If you can comment on this I
> would be happy to learn from your experience, but please stop
> hijacking my posts and misdirecting attention to cater to your agenda
> against the current test methods. Start your own thread if that is
> what you want to talk about.
> All,
> I will be happy to answer questions about the burning abilities and
> tecniques of our stove and combustor.
> Kirk
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>
> *To:* 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] stove test
>
> Dear Kirk
>
> >With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we)
> have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND.
>
> I think you have done exactly that. Good on you.
>
> There is no misdirection at all here. You are past the verge of
> changing the stove’s superior performance in order to get a better
> rating on an invalid metric. It is that simple. Don’t get sucked
> into that trap. When you are getting results as good as you are,
> there are new opportunities to go wrong.
>
> The only ‘misdirection’ has been supplied for years by test
> methods that guided people to edit their stoves to meet spurious
> requirements that did not bear directly on performance, or worse,
> actually penalised stoves for their superior performance. A good
> example is attached.
>
> This is not something new in the stove community. Here is a quote
> from the attached Aprovecho document from 2003:
>
> /“Why was the good advice, by established experts in the field,
> represented in the VITA International Standard test, the result of
> several well funded international conferences, obscure in 2003?
> Both the Indian and Chinese governments developed tests of their
> own widening the scope of PHU to include power, rate of
> evaporation, time. Visser (2003) published a version of a water
> boiling test based on efficiency and appropriate power for boiling
> and simmering. What motivated this parallel activity? Why isn’t
> the VITA test in more general use?”/
>
> One reason the VITA test was not more popular was it had several
> conceptual errors and a few really poor metrics that gave
> mis-directing outputs. One is the efficiency of simmering, another
> is the concept of specific fuel consumption for simmering.
> Another was the idea of an ‘average efficiency’ meaning an
> ‘average thermal efficiency’. I believe from my research that the
> specific fuel consumption for simmering and the average efficiency
> were both introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so, before his book
> came out. Neither are acceptable metrics.
>
> The document refers to the VITA test the ‘international standard’
> which is not supported by the evidence. Three or four minor
> parties agreed to it and it was never used by the major markets in
> India and China. Even Eindhoven University didn’t use it and they
> were a party to drafting it. India pretty much adopted the
> minority position taken by KK Prasad from Eindhoven and built that
> into their 1991 test. The Chinese test from that era was very
> similar. India, interestingly, produced a list of 28 standard
> sizes of cooking pot which is a record, I believe!
>
> The long-forgotten organisation Bois de Feu had a clear
> understanding of these issues and had a test method in 1982 that
> didn’t have these problems. They treated the simmering phase very
> carefully (and differently). Prasad (and Visser who was his
> student) developed multiple test methods over the years. Piet
> Visser and I created one in Malawi in about 2007 which later
> evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat transfer efficiency which is
> now a SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05 (SeTAR is an independently
> managed continuation of the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC project). It
> doesn’t really predict performance, it gives a real-time heat
> transfer efficiency report under varying conditions. It is very
> easy to perform and it supports pot-swapping, similar to the
> Indian protocol.
>
> So, ladies and gentlemen, there are no Tier 4 stoves. That
> achievement will have to wait for the development of appropriate,
> valid low power metrics and one will need an equipment set capable
> of quantifying the result.
>
> Kirk: don’t be bamboozled. You are doing good work. Nothing is
> perfectly correct. Independent investigation of truth is still
> required.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Crispin
>
> All,
>
> With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we)
> have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND. This is real
> and proven and no amount of misdirection can change that. It will
> be at Aprovecho for stove camp for all to examine, and I will be
> giving a presentation on how it burns so clean.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Kirk
>
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
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