[Stoves] stove test

Tue May 31 01:10:52 CDT 2016

kg,

wondering why my mail program labeled your (this) post as spam.

ronald von wunderbayern

On 31.05.2016 08:07, kgharris wrote:
> Crispin,
> My original statement was to point out how the increase in ambient 
> room temperature had changed the turn-down performance of the stove.  
> This is an important topic if the stove principles are going to have 
> any effect in hot tropical countries.  If you can comment on this I 
> would be happy to learn from your experience, but please stop 
> hijacking my posts and misdirecting attention to cater to your agenda 
> against the current test methods.  Start your own thread if that is 
> what you want to talk about.
> All,
> I will be happy to answer questions about the burning abilities and 
> tecniques of our stove and combustor.
> Kirk
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>     *To:* 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
>     <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>     *Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] stove test
>
>     Dear Kirk
>
>     >With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we)
>     have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND.
>
>     I think you have done exactly that. Good on you.
>
>     There is no misdirection at all here. You are past the verge of
>     changing the stove’s superior performance in order to get a better
>     rating on an invalid metric. It is that simple. Don’t get sucked
>     into that trap. When you are getting results as good as you are,
>     there are new opportunities to go wrong.
>
>     The only ‘misdirection’ has been supplied for years by test
>     methods that guided people to edit their stoves to meet spurious
>     requirements that did not bear directly on performance, or worse,
>     actually penalised stoves for their superior performance.  A good
>     example is attached.
>
>     This is not something new in the stove community. Here is a quote
>     from the attached Aprovecho document from 2003:
>
>     /“Why was the good advice, by established experts in the field,
>     represented in the VITA International Standard test, the result of
>     several well funded international conferences, obscure in 2003?
>     Both the Indian and Chinese governments developed tests of their
>     own widening the scope of PHU to include power, rate of
>     evaporation, time. Visser (2003) published a version of a water
>     boiling test based on efficiency and appropriate power for boiling
>     and simmering. What motivated this parallel activity? Why isn’t
>     the VITA test in more general use?”/
>
>     One reason the VITA test was not more popular was it had several
>     conceptual errors and a few really poor metrics that gave
>     mis-directing outputs. One is the efficiency of simmering, another
>     is the concept of specific fuel consumption for simmering.
>      Another was the idea of an ‘average efficiency’ meaning an
>     ‘average thermal efficiency’. I believe from my research that the
>     specific fuel consumption for simmering and the average efficiency
>     were both introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so, before his book
>     came out. Neither are acceptable metrics.
>
>     The document refers to the VITA test the ‘international standard’
>     which is not supported by the evidence. Three or four minor
>     parties agreed to it and it was never used by the major markets in
>     India and China. Even Eindhoven University didn’t use it and they
>     were a party to drafting it. India pretty much adopted the
>     minority position taken by KK Prasad from Eindhoven and built that
>     into their 1991 test. The Chinese test from that era was very
>     similar. India, interestingly, produced a list of 28 standard
>     sizes of cooking pot which is a record, I believe!
>
>     The long-forgotten organisation Bois de Feu had a clear
>     understanding of these issues and had a test method in 1982 that
>     didn’t have these problems. They treated the simmering phase very
>     carefully (and differently). Prasad (and Visser who was his
>     student) developed multiple test methods over the years. Piet
>     Visser and I created one in Malawi in about 2007 which later
>     evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat transfer efficiency which is
>     now a SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05 (SeTAR is an independently
>     managed continuation of the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC project). It
>     doesn’t really predict performance, it gives a real-time heat
>     transfer efficiency report under varying conditions. It is very
>     easy to perform and it supports pot-swapping, similar to the
>     Indian protocol.
>
>     So, ladies and gentlemen, there are no Tier 4 stoves. That
>     achievement will have to wait for the development of appropriate,
>     valid low power metrics and one will need an equipment set capable
>     of quantifying the result.
>
>     Kirk: don’t be bamboozled. You are doing good work.  Nothing is
>     perfectly correct. Independent investigation of truth is still
>     required.
>
>     Best wishes
>
>     Crispin
>
>     All,
>
>     With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we)
>     have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND.  This is real
>     and proven and no amount of misdirection can change that.  It will
>     be at Aprovecho for stove camp for all to examine, and I will be
>     giving a presentation on how it burns so clean.
>
>     Respectfully,
>
>     Kirk
>
>     Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
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