[Stoves] Testing retrofit mud stoves (Questions to Anurag Bhatnagar)

Traveller miata98 at gmail.com
Tue Sep 13 14:29:10 CDT 2016


Moderator: I changed the subject line.
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Anurag:

Thrilled to hear not everybody thinks "3 stone" mud stoves are "evil".

Demonization is an integral aspect of promoting a religion. Some stoves are
demonized, and as Dr Karve told us, chimneys are demonized. Even USEPA
believes in chimneys.  I posted the Dasgupta paper on Bangladesh 10 years
ago that suggested that ventilation cleared up indoor air fairly quickly.
(Limited survey which may have confirmed pre-conceived notions, but that is
science these days. I like convenient citations just like everybody else.)

Also, I for one don't think coals or biomass are "dirty fuels". Solid fuels
come in Fifty Shades of Grey. USEPA/GACC ISO exercise on performance
standards is about "hard limits", after all, no? :-)

Some questions, if you don't mind. Answer them whichever way you feel like
(or not)

1. Where are you getting these stoves tested and for what purpose? In
USEPA-approved labs and under WBT protocols?

2. What fuels are you testing them with? Are the fuel qualities tested in
labs? (At today's Webinar, we heard that WHO/BAMG exercise pays no
attention to moisture. I wonder if they pay any attention to fuel chemistry
at all. Moisture is key to understanding solid fuels, along with metals,
different forms of carbon, temperature limits).

3. Are you seeking to set or meet a "relative standard" - e.g., % smoke
reduction in indoor air during cooking hours, in real life, or % mass
reduction in weekly fuel for a variety of meals and water/space heating
preferences of the users - or an "absolute standard" - like USEPA's NSPS?

4. Are you also comparing the time spent in the kitchen and the possible
changes in the rhythm of the "cooking system"? (In today's Webinar, I heard
someone say they were trying to model people who wanted to spend time in
the kitchen as they pleased, even whole days. I wonder if these modelers
know what a "kitchen" means or where the cooks may want to go.)

5. Are you also figuring in pleasure, happiness, relief, and such other
aspects of mental health? (You know, "improved woodstoves" have been a risk
factor in my mental illness and hence the coming premature death.)

In case you are also testing disease incidence and such, like those MIT
e-Cons (Remy, Duflo, Greenstone), may I suggest In Rural Chhattisgarh,
Health Problems Go Far Beyond Medical Definitions
<http://thewire.in/62795/jss-rural-health-chhattisgarh/> (1 September
2016).

A nice reality check on the Global Burden of Disease. Or WHO modelers.

I have called GBD "murder by assumptions". EPA/GACC promise "life extension
by assumptions".  They will sell ADALYs any which way.

They say risk factors are causes. Yeah, of statistical deaths.

----------------------

I suppose mud stoves are not the same as open 3-stone fires. I don't think
the latter can be called stoves.

Some 20+ years ago, I asked on this Stoves list something like, "What is a
stove? What are different types of stoves? What are the respective markets
and market shares?"

You mention "the stove industry". I was then trying to do economics of this
"cottage and handicrafts" industry segment of the energy industry.

Nobody answered. I had the same reaction from the gurus of "improved
stoves".

Why define? Why ask questions?

J. Krishnamurti says, "Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential
to the understanding of a problem." I think Stovers have been asking wrong
questions whose answers will never be found. Guarantees sustainable energy.

Nikhil



On Sep 1, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Anurag <anuragbhat at yahoo.com> wrote:

Check with Sailesh Rao of climate healers.com : his research states
something to the effect that if humans turn vegan for 3 years, it can
reverse carbon emissions added over the last 1 century. His calculations
are based on a complex simulation which models the emissions contributed by
culling for beef. That effect is an exponential of what burning of biomass
/ cow dung does.

He originally invented the Ethernet in Bay Area 20 years ago (the wire that
used to connect your laptop to the router before wifi came along). Now he
has invented a stove that retrofits into a 3 stone mud stove, lasts for 10
years and costs  US $ 6 only. I am testing the surprising smoke and fuel
reduction.

Steve Jobs was right - the best designs are the simplest ones. And the most
intuitive thing Rao has done is to not make the 3 stone stove as "Evil" as
everyone in the stove industry does. Instead of changing that stove with a
high cost one, he worked with and around the 3 stone stove - high adoption
is almost guaranteed.

Anurag Bhatnagar

Sent from my iPhone





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