[Stoves] Stove talk - Rocket mixing
kgharris
kgharris at sonic.net
Fri Sep 23 02:39:05 CDT 2016
Paul,
Thank you for the response, suggestions and questions.
1. The mixer is shaped to fit snugly into the stove. Air also mixes with any gas that leaks around the edges. It is like having another slot around the edge.
The folks at Aprovecho did like the overall mixer idea.
2. The sketch was very basic, just to show the mixer principle. Yes the shelf is still there. The mixer reduces the quantity of primary air needed from under the shelf. To much blows the flame out the mouth of the stove. The reduced primary air is shown in the attached updated drawing with a smaller arrow. This may end up not being a rocket stove, or being a distant variation of the rocket stove.
3. I added split arrows to the drawing to show the primary and secondary air coming from the same source as you describe. The flame is rich with wood gas, which is why the mixer could help. Air control is another challenge, perhaps less important if the mixing system can handle large power variations. This is true in the Wonderwerk TLUD, the mixing system can handle both high and low power levels and no secondary air control is needed.
Kirk H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Anderson
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove talk - Rocket mixing
Kirk,
Nice!!!! Very "Kirk-wellian" or "Harris-oniam". (And those are compliments!!!).
1, You might want to try having more of the "nose" (innermost part of the secondary air shelf) to be blocked off to force even more of the flame nearer the center. There are so many ways to modify what you have caught as a concept. And I know that you do those modifications so well and with good observations of the results. I am sure that this is of GREAT interest to Aprovecho and all who have worked so hard regarding Rocket stove technology and dissemination.
2. Your drawing does not show the standard shelf and grate of the classic Rocket stove. Please confirm it that shelf is still in the design (I think that it probably should be.) Removing that shelf would remove the most fundamental characteristic of Rocket technology.
3. Your drawing does not acknowledge that the air entering under your secondary air shelf has BOTH primary and secondary combustion functions (because some of the created pyrolytic gases are being burned with the surplus of air that is entering. Very difficult to gain additional control over the air flows, (and why Rocket stoves are not gasifiers, which have gas production and gas combustion sufficiently separate to have control over both.) How could you change your drawing to illustrate this?
Looking forward to your next report.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.comOn 9/22/2016 2:02 AM, kgharris wrote:
All,
There has been a lot of negativity on the list lately which Ron has been addressing. I don't want to get caught up in this. I would prefer to contribute stove talk to the list that suits my interests.
To this end I have attached some photos of one of my current projects, using in a rocket stove the rapid mixing techniques which make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove very clean burning. This project is just getting started and so the technique is not yet developed. It will hopefully be interesting for the members on the list.
Kirk H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronal W. Larson
To: miata98 at gmail.com
Cc: Discussion of biomass
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WHO's for whom? For what?
Nikhil cc List
You continue to miss the point. At this site: http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org, the first line reads:
This discussion is provided to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions.
The key words are cooking, biomass, developing. Your message below addresses none of these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph proves the same - a waste of bandwidth.
If you wish to talk about “fuel ideologies” (your last two words)- I think it best you find another list.
I find it insulting to many when you use terms like “abuse of science”, “spurious theories”, “concocted data”, "volunteered blindness” and “saviors…market ADALYs” - none with any semblance of an example. I cannot recall any such negative writing by anyone that is so devoid of proof.
The purpose of the ISO work (insulting to call it an exercise) is to get real numbers - the basis of science - to develop improved stoves. I challenge you to say what you dislike about that ISO work - into which a lot of smart people have put a lot of effort. My belief is that you know nothing about the ISO subject you are disparaging.
Please prove me wrong by being specific on your “positive” suggestion; just one example of what the experts did wrong with the ISO work (what you termed “insane.”…)
Ron
On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
Rnn:
Thank you. I have been busy looking for woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None.
I was as disappointed as you are with me. I found some kitchens with - egad, ventilator fans!!
What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are polluting the outside air, the pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures attached).
Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates and concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada? At $9 million per saved statistical life, it's a crime that our dear Global Alliance and Global modelers of premature mortality are ignoring the lives of say, Nantucket residents (median family income $90,000+)?
****
What soured me on what is marketed as science? Well, the marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted data.
But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms emerge. Science struggles through.
What stinks to high heaven, however, is the abuse of science by the advocates, the saviors of the poor ready to market ADALYs.
I don't celebrate my ignorance. I do object to volunteered blindness.
I have a single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO exercise. Get out of the box mentality, look at the cook and food, not fuel ideologies.
Nikhil
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
Nikhil, cc list
I apologize for not responding sooner. Been busy.
I find your response below to be most disappointing. It is clear that you have no use for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on this list - many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to develop cleaner, fuel-saving stoves. I have no idea on what has soured you on science.
Dr. Michael Johnson, who was the key presenter in this webinar had been asked to develop a methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution problems - that included stoves but was for more than stoves. I thought his work was outstanding; he answered an important question that many of are interested in. It is clear you had/have no idea of what either he nor WHO is trying to do.
I have not seen you give one single positive idea from you about helping the aim of this list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor leaves me cold.
I ask that you stick to the topic of this list - which does not include supporting the use of coal or ridiculing those who are concerned about global warming. It does not include giving advice such as your last line:
The rest is blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor, nor care.
I have read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting to very bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or most on this list. It is clear too me that you know nothing about the poor yourself, nor about stoves.
Ron
On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
Ron had asked us all "I suggest waiting until after this webinar to answer your questions about WHO and stoves."
There was no mention of Daniel Wilson's ES&T paper.
I watched much of the Webinar. It was quite an entertainment. Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama. Action.
I am not enlightened. Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to find light - or heat?
Priesthood of any sect/cult narrates platitudes around which questions can or cannot be asked and answered.
I don't remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD.
A stove can do many things - the glass top electric ranges are as good as a table top.
And a stove can get dirty in a myriad of ways. Cooking IS dirty; just ask anybody who has had to clean a stove or a kitchen.
But we have most Quixotic adventurers, tilting at the windmills, in search of "clean air". Via box models. Clean kitchen or clean food - or the quality of food - are assumed to be irrelevant to the question of cooking and health.
Find your little sandbox and play. Let someone else bother about food and health.
-------------
WHO will save the people?
Not WHO.
My humble (!) suggestion to well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore advocates' deceit and pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the pursuit of knowledge - with all the qualifiers about assumptions and uncertainties that researchers do emphasize but the ritual of cite-o-logy ignores. It is unethical to be guided by unconvincing science just because it is done by scientists.
What is to be done? a) Keep on innovating for specific geographic markets, considering a variety of fuels and appliances, focusing first and foremost on "cook food"; b) Formulate your ideas of market size and timing; c) Understand your customers' desires but also keep in mind that desires and needs are pliable and change in response to factors beyond your control; can you make just a fifth of the customers in a particular geographic market adapt your stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody comes to buy a second stove - even if the first one is virtually given away - that's the proof of your design. d) Yes, emissions, exposures, fuel consumption, time taken to cook, are all relevant to customers, but you really don't know who weighs what more than others, and what other things (fuel cycle management drudgery)
The rest is blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor, nor care.
Nikhil
<photo 2.JPG><photo 1.JPG>
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