[Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history

lh cheng lhkind at gmail.com
Fri Dec 1 20:20:54 CST 2017 

Mr Albi,
there apparently is a misunderstanding between you and me.
I talked in a general way, even if I am refering something, it is not you.
best regards

2017-12-02 9:38 GMT+08:00 Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>:

> Mr. Cheng:
>
> Not clear on the intent of your response to my post.  You apparently are
> not aware my stove organization is US based and my post was from personal
> photos I took at an Imperial Museum and I have no connection to the Chinese
> government or am I a proxy of anyone.  Actually quite the opposite.  The
> intent of the photos is stoves and this is a stove list.
>
> Many on this stovelist would appreciate any historical documented data you
> could provide on historical stove development in China.  Many stoves,
> kettles, and cookware found in Asia, the Middle East and other locations
> appear to have originated or were influenced by early Chinese designs.
> There are large historical collections outside China, that would also
> support these findings.
>
> Regards,
>
> Todd Albi, General Manager SilverFire
> 2472 Willamette Street
> Eugene, OR 97405
> USA
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 4:37 PM, lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are many people spread lies for the Chinese regime, they are called
>> "50 cents" by netizens, hundreds of thousands of them( a large number? yes
>> ). this is a part of many lies in China. so distinguish any information
>> from China for yourselves, Dear stovers.
>>
>> 2017-12-02 1:27 GMT+08:00 Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> This is an older (pre-bronze) pottery stoves, perhaps used for drying a
>>> small amount of tea leaves or heating tea.  This is thought to be from the
>>> Xia Dynasty, unearthed near Xuzhou.  The protrusion to far left is the
>>> chimney on the stove.  The larger cup appears to be where maybe tea leaves
>>> were dried, and the higher firepower ports were used for heating water?
>>> Perhaps stove on right uses one port for heating water and the other
>>> formerly had the chimney Ito the rear, now missing?  Just non-scholarly
>>> guesses on my part.
>>>
>>>
>>> ​Apologize, but it was not possible to get any information or better
>>> photographs of these stoves.  They were not accessible and at the back of
>>> the exhibits.  The other items appeared to be of more important historical
>>> significance.  Maybe Shell, GACC, EPA, or others would like to fund efforts
>>> for me to attempt to document some of this history.
>>>
>>> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>>> ​
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:19 PM, <hfyblx at 163.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have to apologize for having been absent from the conversation here
>>>> for a long time. I have been struggling with my prelim since early this
>>>> year if this is kind of excuse…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The public kitchen movement is a product of ambitious growth goal that
>>>> was set by the Chinese government (Great Leap Forward) back in the earlier
>>>> years after the establishment of People’s republic of China. The
>>>> government wanted to increase the steel production to beat the US and UK by
>>>> having the small steel furnace built in lots of the villages. However, back
>>>> then, there was not much iron mine in China due to the weak heavy industry
>>>> and there was no way that the village would get access to the raw material
>>>> for steel industry, not even mention that the production process applied
>>>> could not make steel, but only some metal craps. As a result, all the iron
>>>> woks in each house had to donate to the local “blast furnace” which
>>>> consumed lots of local wood and biomass source (another story) as energy.
>>>> That is the reason why it was not allowed to cook food in single family,
>>>> instead, people all ate in the public kitchen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Disasters came along pretty soon. Both natural cause and artificial
>>>> cause, natural cause account for 30% and government policy account for 70%
>>>> (quoted from the website of The history of the people’s republic of
>>>> China). Food storage went down very fast and people died of starvation (10
>>>> million based on the same website and there is no way I can find whether it
>>>> is true or not). My dad and mom were born right around that three years and
>>>> they were lucky.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1500 RMB for a stove, especially heavy heating stove is a common price
>>>> I would say, while in the 1990s, the price was only 400 RMB. Prices are all
>>>> relative. Back to the day when my parents got married, they can still
>>>> afford that 400 RMB heating stove, accounting for less than 1/10 of annual
>>>> income. There are poorer people and richer people all over the world, every
>>>> county. Objectively speaking, the price of the stove in China is reasonable
>>>> and government has done a lot to distribute the stoves to the project area
>>>> (part of the poverty alleviation policy) at low cost or no cost for the
>>>> receivers. The government will pay for the stove and the receivers only
>>>> need to pay 50 RMB or so for delivery, so far as I know by doing the
>>>> investigation in Shanxi, Hubei province supported by Shell foundation.
>>>> Things might be different in other places but for the project areas, the
>>>> receivers don’t need to pay for the stove that distributed by the
>>>> project, that is for sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> During that investigation, I’ve seen stoves that were sent to the
>>>> houses in the project conducted several years ago. I have to say, some of
>>>> them were stored like new in the backyard and had never been used due to
>>>> all the barriers realized by the researchers. However, some of them were in
>>>> very poor conditions because of everyday wear and tear in the past three or
>>>> four years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But with all the words above, I need to say stove technology is the key
>>>> to answer the question from a technical point of view like how to increase
>>>> the performance and how to make TLUD produce less smoke during ignition
>>>> period and ending period by modifying the dimension and fuel compatibility.
>>>> The studies that evaluate the stove projects will inform us all the
>>>> barriers to improved stove adoption and all the great experience during
>>>> each success stove dissemination. All the effort from the stove community
>>>> should be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have never experienced the bleak years and all my information came
>>>> from my parents and my grandparents so please correct me if any story was
>>>> buried in the history. After all, China is a vast country, similar size to
>>>> the US, everything is possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, stove DIY is something done years ago in China. People
>>>> living in the villages made their Zaos ( a type of common old stove in
>>>> China, In English maybe hearths?) by themselves or hire the mason to do
>>>> that if they don’t know how to make a good one. In this way, good
>>>> masons can make stoves with less smoke and less energy use, then words
>>>> spread and that is how masons made a living.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jacky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>> Windows 10
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:39 PM
>>>> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dr,
>>>>
>>>> there is very little information in English about that, not even in
>>>> Chinese. I am afraid I can't provide more.:( Smoke and stove is a very
>>>> important causation, superficial though. yes, China has moved on since
>>>> those bleak years of 1959-61.  but the  regime never admitted it, let
>>>> alone apologize for it. research or evidence collecting is not welcomed.
>>>> and I need to break GFW to contact with you now in 2017.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2017-12-01 12:02 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
>>>>
>>>> Cheng,
>>>>
>>>> I am learning a lot.  I am dividing the thread into a couple of
>>>> parts.   This first one is about history issues of stoves in China.
>>>>
>>>> The Wikipedia article is informative.  But not about stoves.  Are there
>>>> writings about the "public kitchen" you mention or about stove issues such
>>>> as the smoke causing retaliation by the autorities?   Our focus is about
>>>> stoves and fuels.    I find this topic interesting, but only as history.
>>>> China has moved on since those bleak years of 1959-61.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>
>>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>
>>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
>>>>
>>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>>
>>>> On 11/30/2017 8:55 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dr Anderson and Stovers,
>>>>
>>>>   >Please provide more information about this statement about 30
>>>> million deaths.
>>>>
>>>> this is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
>>>> about it. many details. it is called "Gong Chan Feng( wind of Communism)"
>>>> by my father and mother and their generation, called "public kitchen"
>>>> movement also, if any smoke arise in any home, government officials would
>>>> rush in and destroy the stove, pots or dishes, these kind of thing is
>>>> forbidden in home, and all confiscated.  in some villages, no one survived
>>>> everyone died, in silence. if there were some smokeless clear-burn stove
>>>> applied, maybe more people could survive? actually, technology doesn't
>>>> matter at all, in a world of lies, technology only serves and helps lies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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