[Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history

lh cheng lhkind at gmail.com
Fri Dec 1 20:23:36 CST 2017 

oh, because I reply and quoted your message. I didn't notice that. sorry
for that Mr Albi.

2017-12-02 10:20 GMT+08:00 lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com>:

> Mr Albi,
> there apparently is a misunderstanding between you and me.
> I talked in a general way, even if I am refering something, it is not you.
> best regards
>
> 2017-12-02 9:38 GMT+08:00 Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>:
>
>> Mr. Cheng:
>>
>> Not clear on the intent of your response to my post.  You apparently are
>> not aware my stove organization is US based and my post was from personal
>> photos I took at an Imperial Museum and I have no connection to the Chinese
>> government or am I a proxy of anyone.  Actually quite the opposite.  The
>> intent of the photos is stoves and this is a stove list.
>>
>> Many on this stovelist would appreciate any historical documented data
>> you could provide on historical stove development in China.  Many stoves,
>> kettles, and cookware found in Asia, the Middle East and other locations
>> appear to have originated or were influenced by early Chinese designs.
>> There are large historical collections outside China, that would also
>> support these findings.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Todd Albi, General Manager SilverFire
>> 2472 Willamette Street
>> Eugene, OR 97405
>> USA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 4:37 PM, lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are many people spread lies for the Chinese regime, they are
>>> called "50 cents" by netizens, hundreds of thousands of them( a large
>>> number? yes ). this is a part of many lies in China. so distinguish any
>>> information from China for yourselves, Dear stovers.
>>>
>>> 2017-12-02 1:27 GMT+08:00 Todd Albi <todd.r.albi at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> This is an older (pre-bronze) pottery stoves, perhaps used for drying a
>>>> small amount of tea leaves or heating tea.  This is thought to be from the
>>>> Xia Dynasty, unearthed near Xuzhou.  The protrusion to far left is the
>>>> chimney on the stove.  The larger cup appears to be where maybe tea leaves
>>>> were dried, and the higher firepower ports were used for heating water?
>>>> Perhaps stove on right uses one port for heating water and the other
>>>> formerly had the chimney Ito the rear, now missing?  Just non-scholarly
>>>> guesses on my part.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ​Apologize, but it was not possible to get any information or better
>>>> photographs of these stoves.  They were not accessible and at the back of
>>>> the exhibits.  The other items appeared to be of more important historical
>>>> significance.  Maybe Shell, GACC, EPA, or others would like to fund efforts
>>>> for me to attempt to document some of this history.
>>>>
>>>> Todd Albi, SilverFire
>>>> ​
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:19 PM, <hfyblx at 163.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to apologize for having been absent from the conversation here
>>>>> for a long time. I have been struggling with my prelim since early this
>>>>> year if this is kind of excuse…
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The public kitchen movement is a product of ambitious growth goal that
>>>>> was set by the Chinese government (Great Leap Forward) back in the earlier
>>>>> years after the establishment of People’s republic of China. The
>>>>> government wanted to increase the steel production to beat the US and UK by
>>>>> having the small steel furnace built in lots of the villages. However, back
>>>>> then, there was not much iron mine in China due to the weak heavy industry
>>>>> and there was no way that the village would get access to the raw material
>>>>> for steel industry, not even mention that the production process applied
>>>>> could not make steel, but only some metal craps. As a result, all the iron
>>>>> woks in each house had to donate to the local “blast furnace” which
>>>>> consumed lots of local wood and biomass source (another story) as energy.
>>>>> That is the reason why it was not allowed to cook food in single family,
>>>>> instead, people all ate in the public kitchen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Disasters came along pretty soon. Both natural cause and artificial
>>>>> cause, natural cause account for 30% and government policy account for 70%
>>>>> (quoted from the website of The history of the people’s republic of
>>>>> China). Food storage went down very fast and people died of starvation (10
>>>>> million based on the same website and there is no way I can find whether it
>>>>> is true or not). My dad and mom were born right around that three years and
>>>>> they were lucky.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1500 RMB for a stove, especially heavy heating stove is a common price
>>>>> I would say, while in the 1990s, the price was only 400 RMB. Prices are all
>>>>> relative. Back to the day when my parents got married, they can still
>>>>> afford that 400 RMB heating stove, accounting for less than 1/10 of annual
>>>>> income. There are poorer people and richer people all over the world, every
>>>>> county. Objectively speaking, the price of the stove in China is reasonable
>>>>> and government has done a lot to distribute the stoves to the project area
>>>>> (part of the poverty alleviation policy) at low cost or no cost for the
>>>>> receivers. The government will pay for the stove and the receivers only
>>>>> need to pay 50 RMB or so for delivery, so far as I know by doing the
>>>>> investigation in Shanxi, Hubei province supported by Shell foundation.
>>>>> Things might be different in other places but for the project areas, the
>>>>> receivers don’t need to pay for the stove that distributed by the
>>>>> project, that is for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> During that investigation, I’ve seen stoves that were sent to the
>>>>> houses in the project conducted several years ago. I have to say, some of
>>>>> them were stored like new in the backyard and had never been used due to
>>>>> all the barriers realized by the researchers. However, some of them were in
>>>>> very poor conditions because of everyday wear and tear in the past three or
>>>>> four years.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But with all the words above, I need to say stove technology is the
>>>>> key to answer the question from a technical point of view like how to
>>>>> increase the performance and how to make TLUD produce less smoke during
>>>>> ignition period and ending period by modifying the dimension and fuel
>>>>> compatibility. The studies that evaluate the stove projects will inform us
>>>>> all the barriers to improved stove adoption and all the great experience
>>>>> during each success stove dissemination. All the effort from the stove
>>>>> community should be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never experienced the bleak years and all my information came
>>>>> from my parents and my grandparents so please correct me if any story was
>>>>> buried in the history. After all, China is a vast country, similar size to
>>>>> the US, everything is possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, stove DIY is something done years ago in China. People
>>>>> living in the villages made their Zaos ( a type of common old stove in
>>>>> China, In English maybe hearths?) by themselves or hire the mason to do
>>>>> that if they don’t know how to make a good one. In this way, good
>>>>> masons can make stoves with less smoke and less energy use, then words
>>>>> spread and that is how masons made a living.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacky
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>>>>> Windows 10
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:39 PM
>>>>> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Dr,
>>>>>
>>>>> there is very little information in English about that, not even in
>>>>> Chinese. I am afraid I can't provide more.:( Smoke and stove is a very
>>>>> important causation, superficial though. yes, China has moved on
>>>>> since those bleak years of 1959-61.  but the  regime never admitted
>>>>> it, let alone apologize for it. research or evidence collecting is not
>>>>> welcomed. and I need to break GFW to contact with you now in 2017.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-12-01 12:02 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheng,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am learning a lot.  I am dividing the thread into a couple of
>>>>> parts.   This first one is about history issues of stoves in China.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Wikipedia article is informative.  But not about stoves.  Are
>>>>> there writings about the "public kitchen" you mention or about stove issues
>>>>> such as the smoke causing retaliation by the autorities?   Our focus is
>>>>> about stoves and fuels.    I find this topic interesting, but only as
>>>>> history.  China has moved on since those bleak years of 1959-61.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>>
>>>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
>>>>>
>>>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/30/2017 8:55 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Dr Anderson and Stovers,
>>>>>
>>>>>   >Please provide more information about this statement about 30
>>>>> million deaths.
>>>>>
>>>>> this is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
>>>>> about it. many details. it is called "Gong Chan Feng( wind of Communism)"
>>>>> by my father and mother and their generation, called "public kitchen"
>>>>> movement also, if any smoke arise in any home, government officials would
>>>>> rush in and destroy the stove, pots or dishes, these kind of thing is
>>>>> forbidden in home, and all confiscated.  in some villages, no one survived
>>>>> everyone died, in silence. if there were some smokeless clear-burn stove
>>>>> applied, maybe more people could survive? actually, technology doesn't
>>>>> matter at all, in a world of lies, technology only serves and helps lies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> site:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>
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