[Stoves] TLUD stove is fragile, traditional stove is robust, no stove is antifragile

Sat Dec 2 21:16:02 CST 2017

TLUDs stoves could be built robust but then how do you get them to people.
Here in the Pacific he temperature salt and moisture kill stoves in a few
years.
This has been the bane of my stove work here. We can get demostrate and use
nice units.But if the breakdown shortly there after people are back to a
fire pit
and three rock stove.  The ugly unit here has lasted. It is cement, Kitty
litter clay, perlile. The pot holders ceramic floor tile.  Even if cracked
it  has internal chicken
mesh to help hold together.   However it weighs over 50 pounds

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

> Cheng,    see below
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes from a
> book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr Anderson, he
> is a Doctor and professor. He have a good understanding of man-made
> artificial system, have deep insight of the weakness of some man-made
> system, and he find a good way to make money (of no small amount ) through
> it from financial market.
>
> Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful, but there
> were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the surface,
> when something wrong happened eventually, inevitably, no one can afford it.
>
> I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make something
> clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a
> direction to improve it, and help the user to use it in a safer way.
>
> TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is batch-feed,
> this combination create efficiency and convenience, but also big risk. many
> thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion )  go out, too much or too little
> gas, too much or too little air, temperature too low, (too much or too
> little prmary air, cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to
> extinguish of the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel.
> once the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and the
> fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to put
> out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad situation for
> housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke, people even can got killed by
> the poisonous gas. (when water can't low down the charcoal temperature,
> water H2O can be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).
>
> The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD stove
> users living closely together in We s Bengal, India.   the concerns you
> raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality.   You are
> writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years ago.   I heard that over
> and over.   It is in the big New Yorker magazine articles.  Those people
> are not saying such things any more, at least not publically or where their
> comments could leak back to me.
>
> Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not batch-feeding, not
> burning in a tight closed space. and safer in unexpected situation. it is
> robust. that's why people prefer it over TLUD stove maybe.
>
> I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking it
> thoroughly.
>
> I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well informed or
> with much experience.   Stick with the TLUD stoves.   They are the wave of
> the future.   They can become better, and that is where you and others will
> eventually make important contributions.     --  And there will be many who
> will sit on the sidelines.     ---    Progress in the past few years has
> been great, and getting  better all the time.
>
> I'll sign this message to show my full bias.
>
> Dr TLUD
>
> best regards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Paul:
>>
>> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
>> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
>> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
>> feedstock.
>>
>> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given
>> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on
>> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
>> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
>>
>> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
>> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
>> supposed "stove science".
>>
>> Nikhil
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>>>
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>
>>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
>>> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
>>> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
>>> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
>>> about this stove, that might be fine.
>>>
>>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
>>> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
>>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
>>> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>>>
>>>
>>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion
>>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a
>>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is
>>> enough.
>>>
>>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the
>>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that
>>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be
>>> able to shed some light on this.
>>>
>>>
>>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
>>> design spread among people, and people help each other.
>>>
>>> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have
>>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory
>>> context.
>>>
>>>
>>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
>>> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
>>> have memories.
>>>
>>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
>>> deaths.
>>>
>>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your
>>> insights.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> best regards
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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